00:51:39 Stable (0.30) branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30.1-4-g462c640d31 00:55:20 Stable (0.30) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30.1-4-g462c640d31 01:17:30 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 03:22:43 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 03:55:05 -!- node1 is now known as tiktok 05:23:23 Stable (0.30) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30.1-4-g462c640 05:38:42 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.31-a0-521-gc7390f8 (34) 06:35:45 <06pleasingfungus> think servitor is still doing okish 06:36:19 <06pleasingfungus> most of the spell reworks were to lower level spells; various bolts were the biggest servitor loss 06:36:57 <06pleasingfungus> it can cast some new stuff (plasma beam, arcjolt) and we’ve talked about reworking starburst, too 06:50:28 <06pleasingfungus> rip mdart servitor 06:50:34 <06pleasingfungus> 2 powerful for this world 07:25:12 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-522-gc2a4ee3747: Make Jeremiah only butterfly in sight (acrobat) 10(52 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c2a4ee374706 07:32:05 <04dracoomega> I remember specifically coding it so that you didn't need to forget low level spells. Though I don't know what interim states it ended up in over the years 07:32:39 <04dracoomega> Apparently it would learn level 3 or lower spells only if you didn't have any eligible spells at 4 or higher 07:33:21 <04dracoomega> Specifically so that the common case of having magic dart or throw frost or something still in the spell list wouldn't matter 07:36:04 <06pleasingfungus> relevant change was dj spell selection logic, though tbh we could have just changed that instead 07:36:18 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-522-gc2a4ee3747 (34) 07:37:05 <04dracoomega> Also: you say there was interest in reworking starburst. Did you mean changing the spell altogether, or just changing the internals so monsters/ghosts could also use it? 07:50:24 <06pleasingfungus> former 07:52:54 <06pleasingfungus> gamma and others have talked about making it do something other than fire one beam in each direction, eg maybe firing beams towards/through some number of nearby enemies. plasma beam being added has maybe eaten some of the relevant design space 07:53:35 <04dracoomega> I dunno. In my comparatively limited time using both, starburst still felt reasonably cool and useful and distinct 07:53:53 <04dracoomega> Certainly don't feel like the targeters for the two of those spells are stepping on each other's toes 07:53:56 <06pleasingfungus> yeah i’m ok with it. it’s not my project 🙂 07:54:27 <06pleasingfungus> to be clear, i think that plasma beam doesn’t overlap with current starburst, only with the vague proposed rework 07:54:40 <04dracoomega> Oh. That makes more sense ^^; 07:54:51 <08nicolae> it is now. you're being reassigned to the starburst case, fungus. you're a loose cannon. the commissioner is breathing down my neck about that shit you pulled at the warehouse last week. in this precinct we follow protocols, detective. and if you can't understand that, maybe you're not a fit for this police department. 07:55:12 <04dracoomega> But I have enough things on my theoretical plate that I am still mulling about! >.> 07:55:33 <06pleasingfungus> i refuse! i’m handing in my badge and wand. i’m gonna go join benoit blink at the moriorby private detective agency! 07:56:23 <06pleasingfungus> inspector clouseye 07:57:02 <08nicolae> i did have inspector closedeye last night, i thought of closeeye but the two e's next to each other bugged me 07:57:03 <06pleasingfungus> hercule poiris 07:57:15 <06pleasingfungus> (bad) 07:57:21 <08nicolae> can these eyeball puns possibly get any cornea? 07:57:34 <09hellmonk> conelumbo 07:57:38 <06pleasingfungus> wow 07:59:57 <06pleasingfungus> to say nothing of the most famous private eye of all, detective sherlook 08:03:38 <06pleasingfungus> (lazy: adrieyen monk) 08:03:45 <06pleasingfungus> (ok i’m done.) 08:04:30 <06pleasingfungus> imo help me brainstorm more messages for uniques/other monsters when they kill the player, like the god messages when you die 08:04:31 <08nicolae> Ocule Poirot 08:04:48 <08nicolae> harold is happy to finally be able to retire 08:04:58 <08nicolae> norris goes "aw, lucky!" 08:05:02 <06pleasingfungus> lol 08:05:10 <04dracoomega> Speaking of changing spells, though... On the topic of Hexslinger starting spells, what do you think about entirely replacing player Slow with a slow movement hex of reliably longer duration than it? I feel like the EV of casting slow on an enemy that you plan to actually shoot at is... really bad? Slow effectively gives you an extra turn per 2 turns base turns, meaning that even if you land it on the first cast (which you 08:05:10 probably won't) you need to shoot at it 6 times afterward for it to have been any better than just... shooting at it first instead of casting. And it often barely last that long, even. (Yes, if something is close to you and you need to open a gap to go up a staircase, this can still accomplish something despite 'bad EV' but otherwise...) If it just slows movement, but is reliably longer-lasting, it is easier for hexslinger to get positive EV from 08:05:11 using it on things when they have space to retreat and maneuver and might make it feel a more useful part of the kit. Hedge Wizard is the only other background that starts with it and I'm not sure they care about this change one way or the other? 08:05:11 <06pleasingfungus> so far i also have jory, sigmund, and natasha 08:05:54 <04dracoomega> (As, y'know, part of several other changes to hexslinger) 08:05:58 <06pleasingfungus> agree that slow currently feels bad (maybe always did?) 08:06:07 <08nicolae> Donald: "You're dead. I... like that." 08:06:12 <06pleasingfungus> ooh 08:06:51 <08nicolae> Nikola: "Another successful result!" 08:07:04 <08nicolae> i suppose i should look up what their current speech themes are, but eh 08:07:08 <04dracoomega> Slow theortically has better EV on, say, a melee character who can't do anything on the turns something is approaching, so the hex is 'free', but also those don't really exist 08:08:14 <08nicolae> TRJ: Your body is consumed by slimes... 08:10:00 <06pleasingfungus> you subside into primal slime 08:10:12 <06pleasingfungus> re slow, i think the proposed change is mostly just a slow buff 08:10:22 <06pleasingfungus> maybe that’s fine; still not sure how good it’s feel 08:10:41 <06pleasingfungus> i vaguely wonder about somehow making it more positional or terrain/layout dependent 08:11:17 <06pleasingfungus> think you’d basically still want to cast slow move Slow every fight 08:11:18 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> slowing enemies moving to kite them with is already inherently layout dependent 08:11:19 <04dracoomega> Frankly, I think that a hex whose value depends on having room to back up and exploit your new ability to keep them away from you by doing so is positional 08:11:24 <06pleasingfungus> mm 08:11:35 <06pleasingfungus> feels like it’s most of D 08:11:38 <06pleasingfungus> esp early d 08:11:55 <04dracoomega> Depends on what's explored? And where other monsters are. 08:12:06 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> as opposed to IE casting freeze? 08:12:35 <06pleasingfungus> think freeze is fundamentally more satisfying in that it advances the fight toward and ending 08:12:49 <06pleasingfungus> slow only delays 08:13:45 <04dracoomega> I think for hexslinger to work, it really needs to feel like at each incremental step of using and training magic, you are getting a performance benefit to your main gameplan out of doing so. Currently I feel that is... very much not the case, and in practice you're best off mostly ignoring magic skills for quite a while 08:13:50 <06pleasingfungus> sure 08:13:55 <06pleasingfungus> i agree currently hs is bad 08:14:01 <06pleasingfungus> feelwise 08:14:12 <06pleasingfungus> unsure about exact optimal strategy 08:14:31 <06pleasingfungus> but just trying to push new ideas towards improving on status quo 08:15:01 <04dracoomega> (For what it's worth, the next spell in the kit I was thinking of adding was a level 2 that makes your next few shots do fragmentation damage, but also inflict barbs) 08:15:45 <04dracoomega> So doing less impact damage encourages you to spread it around, while your earlier spell already focuses more on being able to keep out of range 08:16:18 <04dracoomega> (And I honestly think they both let you use Inner Flame more effectively than currently, by being able to more safely and reliably detonate it on a schedule) 08:16:26 <06pleasingfungus> (re freeze, also think that melee range combat also has an inherently more exciting dynamic of having to commit to a dangerous position where enemies can do more damage and it’s harder to retreat) 08:16:30 <06pleasingfungus> re barbs… 08:16:45 <06pleasingfungus> and re shot buffs… 08:18:13 <06pleasingfungus> think barbs is a space that really asks to be explored. main problem is that the thing it encourages is ‘walking away’, which is not super riveting or engaging- it’s more player attention requiring than attacking, but not usually more interesting or involving more decisions 08:18:17 <06pleasingfungus> just less automated 08:18:40 <06pleasingfungus> this is also an issue with effects like sticky flame and fcloud and poison magic fwiw 08:19:41 <06pleasingfungus> just not sure it’s a great space to move into further 08:20:00 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> now I'm just thinking about how after all these years we never ended up with making Autoflee out of whatever the autoplay bot does 08:20:02 <08nicolae> it's time to bite the bullet and implement the projectile attraction aura, 08:20:16 <06pleasingfungus> i do want the projectile attraction aura 🙂 08:21:55 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> out of curiousity, does FE get five spells when the non-hedge-wizards get four basically just an outlier fluke, or would it be fine for each book to eventually reach five again as long as it doesn't broach the level 5 spell space of giving a strong strategy for too long? 08:22:31 <04dracoomega> I feel like retreating from monsters is less free than some of this implies, but especially earlygame I think there are active considerations about when and where you can do this (and hexslinger feels like it already kind of wants to be in that direction?). Like, if you're a character with free ranged attacks and you want magic that supports that game plan, surely the main areas are either about controlling enemies or opening 08:22:32 space? (I honestly think barbs would make inner flame a lot more workable also and that is a pretty fun and puncy thing, imo) 08:22:52 <06pleasingfungus> seems fine 08:22:57 <06pleasingfungus> re 5spells 08:22:59 <04dracoomega> The idea of the hex making the ammo do less base damage (via AC check) was to make it not an auto-cast, and fall off over the game, to be clear 08:23:06 <06pleasingfungus> would want good spells tho 🙂 08:23:28 <06pleasingfungus> not sure we have even 4 good spells in some books 08:23:40 <06pleasingfungus> eg hs 08:23:41 <04dracoomega> Earlygame, it reliably increases kill potential against most things and gives a reason why hex skill can actually be better than just training ranged, and lets you transition into your other tools that want more of it 08:24:47 <04dracoomega> (I think Portal Projectile is in an awkward position, tbh. Like, it's a good spell and clearly is a thing that 'support spells for archers' wants, except... it's a spell that I think is kind of only good much later in the game? It's a heavy investment early on, and that investment actively makes it worse (since your ranged is worse), and the kind of targets and battles it shines in are a lot less common early also) 08:25:09 <04dracoomega> I'd be tempted to take it out of the book altogether, except that's also clearly the character archetype that eventually wants it the most 08:25:12 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> could have early eyes again.... 08:25:34 <06pleasingfungus> pproj definitely awkward yes 08:25:47 <06pleasingfungus> i also think it just doesn’t feel that great 08:26:18 <08nicolae> what if instead of making it smite-targeted it made the projectiles bolt-targeted. penetration. 08:27:24 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> isn't that javelins' niche? 08:28:39 <06pleasingfungus> re more positional slow, imagine a spell that creates a temp snare trap on a random nearby space ala pog. snared monsters can’t walk and probably get an ev penalty (but aren’t stabbable). don’t think this is a lv1 effect unless mons get a high chance of dodging it at nontrivial hd, but it’s sort of the space i have in mind 08:28:49 <06pleasingfungus> and xbows 08:29:04 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I've pondered trap design a little, too 08:29:37 <04dracoomega> (But the thing is: I think hexslinger needs a level 1 that does things - and I agree that most decent traps don't feel level 1) 08:29:45 <06pleasingfungus> fair 08:29:51 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (I've repeatedly talked to Draco about portal projectile specifically being extremely weird as part hex mostly just because hexslinger's in its specific spell schools, and kinda think it'd still fit what it wants to do and allow for a buff to be specifically a hex placed on the thing you want to keep autotargetting) 08:30:00 <04dracoomega> I mean, maybe not having any level 1 and just getting a level 2 that does things is okay? It definitely has a gap that is way too long. 08:30:31 <04dracoomega> Level 3 dual-school spells are hard to cast. And dual-school spells in different schools that also aren't about doing damage without other skills? 08:30:43 <04dracoomega> Need an active reason why learning hexes earlygame is actually good 08:30:43 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (like, every shot you do also hits the hexed enemy? or when you move without attacking, you also fire a shot against that enemy, so crossbox mindelay can balance off kiting?) 08:30:58 <04dracoomega> (Like, Hunters I've played for comparison just feel flatly better at the moment, tbh) 08:31:01 <04dracoomega> By a lot 08:31:39 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (with a boosted check, and the fact it drains mp covers why not Just Every Fight) 08:33:50 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also I'm definitely more leaning towards "a level 2 spell the player would really want would be better off for hs" than just trying to force a level 1 spell to entirely fit the early shooting niches without being too strong. enchanter doesn't get a level 1 spell anymore, right?) 08:34:26 <06pleasingfungus> oh, ha, an effect that lets you get extra shots against an enemy is interesting. maybe if it triggers on shooting, maybe shooting at other enemies? or some other trigger… many options 08:34:27 <04dracoomega> I guess that's true 08:34:49 <04dracoomega> (But I do think Slow is kind of just a trap? ...though it does sometimes let you take a staircase you otherwise couldn't) 08:34:56 <04dracoomega> But maybe we cut it altogether?? 08:35:06 <04dracoomega> (It does more than Corona ever did, but that's a loooow bar) 08:35:26 <08nicolae> Repel. whenever a monster attempts to step towards you, they go the opposite direction instead. 08:35:44 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> that's just swiftness with extra steps 08:35:50 <08nicolae> swiftness is already extra steps 08:35:52 <06pleasingfungus> so to speak 08:35:54 <06pleasingfungus> dang it 08:35:56 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> har. 08:36:00 <08nicolae> i don't play many hexslingers, sadly 08:36:08 <04dracoomega> The design space for level 1 spells that do things which aren't just damage feels pretty small, not gonna lie 08:36:09 <08nicolae> i should probably shut up before gammafunk makes me win a hexslinger 08:36:20 <04dracoomega> Because utility ideas tend to inherantly scale a lot better 08:36:24 <06pleasingfungus> how’s that transmuter going? 08:36:37 <06pleasingfungus> will checks help, i think 08:36:41 <08nicolae> i assume that challenge is nullified thanks to talismans 08:36:47 <06pleasingfungus> hm, garden path sentence 08:36:47 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> no, it's amplified 08:37:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> gotta see the historical thing before it disappears 08:37:47 <04dracoomega> ....y'know, I was typing something and realized the 'EV problems' is a very misleading phrase in Crawl specifically 08:37:57 <04dracoomega> 'expected value problems' 08:38:02 <08nicolae> oh, in this context: a while back, while the other devs were trying to figure out what to do about form spells (talismans had not been conceived of yet) i kept making suggestions and eventually gammafunk was like "okay you can't make any more form suggestions until you win a tmut" and i have not yet done that 08:38:12 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> ahhhh. 08:38:14 <06pleasingfungus> for the record, nicolae’s proj attract spell is a hex that applies an ench. the ench gives a % chance of projectiles passing adj to the victim redirecting to them (affects both your misses which overshot and enemies shooting nearby) 08:38:24 <04dracoomega> Support debuffs have to be worth the time spent casting them instead of shooting at things 08:38:45 <08nicolae> the original idea also included projectiles from the monster themself. 08:38:51 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> !lg hangedman tm 08:38:52 <04Cerebot> 296. HangedMan the Middleweight Champion (L27 DsTm of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-01-26 02:33:57, with 9467520 points after 182195 turns and 1d+2:16:33. 08:38:54 <06pleasingfungus> o ya sorry 08:38:57 <06pleasingfungus> those too 08:38:58 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> hehehe. 08:38:59 <04dracoomega> Which corona definitely wasn't, and slow frequently isn't. It's a little hard to compete against the expected value of some things like 'instantly kill the enemy' ie: hibernation 😛 08:39:09 <06pleasingfungus> shooting at things gets pretty good eventually too 08:39:20 <04dracoomega> Well, that only makes it worse 😛 08:39:35 <04dracoomega> (Or more like "Casting it a few times has to be better than shooting a few times instead, or why aren't you just shooting?") 08:39:43 <04dracoomega> Not necessarily in all situations, but in more than a narrow slice 08:40:00 <03implojin> i was thinking about this a while back in relation to launcher egos, it seems to me like there's probably design space there to strengthen identity of ranged weapons with brands that do things (to projectiles / from range) that are unavailable as melee brands 08:40:01 <08nicolae> i liked it because it had a ton of various utility (you could use it to make a high-EV target easier to hit, you could put it on, like, nessos to make them hit themselves instead of you with arrows, you could use it to make a popcorn enemy a 3x3 projectile shield, you could use it to hit a target around corners or other monsters, etc. the downside is that apparently it's a pain in the dingaling to actually Code Up 08:40:22 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> physics continue to be very hard. 08:40:46 <04dracoomega> I kind of feel that caring about a missile going through an aura is a difficult enough technical challenge that I'd rather any redirect effects kind of just ignore that part 08:41:05 <04dracoomega> And we can just consider whatever thing involved sufficiently magnetic 08:41:09 <04dracoomega> (Even that is probably hard) 08:41:11 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> dispersal versus distortion, hmm. 08:41:12 <06pleasingfungus> imp: sure i’m into it 08:41:35 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (finally re-fulfilling the ancient AM book being nothing but ammo brand spells and blink...) 08:42:55 <08nicolae> tbf the aura was mostly for the graphical display, "passing through a tile adjacent to such an affected monster" would be enough rather than checking if those spaces have an actual mechanical aura. nonetheless, 08:43:21 <04dracoomega> Well, more like I think that doing anything to beams that 'pass through' a tile on their way seems really hard 08:43:39 <04dracoomega> Tracking the area itself isn't the hard part 08:44:11 <08nicolae> yeah, that's the impression i get 😔 08:44:17 <08nicolae> man, i made that suggestion on the dev wiki in like 2011 08:44:47 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I'm not saying it isn't conceptually cool 08:45:01 <08nicolae> oh well 08:45:07 <08nicolae> that's just how things go sometimes 08:45:27 <06pleasingfungus> i still hope there’s some version of it that’d work 08:45:28 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> there sure is a lot on the old dev wiki that's cool and had basically no energy or response to it 08:45:38 <06pleasingfungus> maybe at targeting time rather than firing time 08:45:40 <08nicolae> at least one of my other dev wiki ideas from a decade ago managed to make it in, so, on the whole i'm coming out ahead 08:45:50 <06pleasingfungus> closer to ru style redirect 08:46:01 <04dracoomega> Waaaaay back in the day, before there were basically any high level hexes, one spell I wanted to get around to implementing but never did was Shroud of Misfortune, that basically made enemies trying to attack you have all sorts of mishaps happen to them. This included ranged enemies shooting at nearby allies instead of you. 08:46:20 <06pleasingfungus> heh 08:46:31 <04dracoomega> (Also things tripping up, dropping their weapons, miscasting their spells, etc) 08:46:34 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> turns out we ended up making a god do that 08:46:48 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (ru sure is weird.) 08:48:10 <08nicolae> there's Anguish, which is kiiiiiiiiiiiiiind of similar (they attack you and take damage) 08:48:31 <04dracoomega> I've tried to get Anguish to do stuff on several characters now and it's always felt deeply underwhelming 08:48:34 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...I was going to look up just how long ago the early portal where you get an ally idea was written and am just staring blankly at the idea volcanoes were problematic for their loot and not because in 2010 there were pulsating lumps and ants and gnolls in an orc portal) 08:48:46 <06pleasingfungus> ru is sac design space 08:48:55 <04dracoomega> Like, characters with piles of zombies to freely take damage, even, and it still felt unexciting 08:49:17 <06pleasingfungus> could buff it at some point. i got very positive feedback when i first shipped it 08:49:26 <06pleasingfungus> but haven’t heard much since 08:49:34 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> I've had decent success with anguish but it's mostly on djinn and gnolls that inherently have much weirder relationships with spellpower 08:49:49 <06pleasingfungus> original version did 2x damage, which was apparently bonkers 08:50:33 <04dracoomega> I am surprised that this was the case, tbh. I do want to try using it more, but it's definitely felt like it was hard to notice a meaningful impact to using it in most situations. 08:50:54 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...I guess metabolic englaciation synergies with getting necromancers to get hexes, but, like, how many times are you casting different mass hexes after the animate dead / death channel cost versus actually poking people.) 08:51:15 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (by the way it sure is incredibly dumb armours have a metabolism to englaciate.) 08:51:24 <04dracoomega> (I wonder if some of it is that like... mostly the player tries to avoid taking much damage in a lot of fights anyway, so it doesn't do a lot, and if you have a pile of allies to take all the damage for you, you also already had a pile of allies to kill everything with?) 08:52:01 <04dracoomega> There's a pile of later-game things I assume it's stronger against but also won't work on ^^; 08:58:29 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (kinda wonder if hexes could be stronger if they also got weird means of spreading them to then nerf them in turn akin to how the whole positional magic thing worked out) 08:58:39 <06pleasingfungus> huh? 08:58:41 <03implojin> re: ev with ranged weapon abilities, one way to deal with this is to make them apply as longer-term buffs in the form of auras or passive-ish projectile modifiers 08:58:42 <04dracoomega> What do yo umean? 08:58:48 <06pleasingfungus> oh, grid shapes? 08:59:05 <06pleasingfungus> like this hex only affects monsters in some kind of contagion chain 08:59:26 <06pleasingfungus> or a hailstorm shaped hex etc 08:59:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> like arcjolt, yes, since that's the most thematic 08:59:57 <08nicolae> Dance Line. a bolt-targeted hex that makes affected monsters get confused like tarantella dancing 08:59:58 <06pleasingfungus> and original arcjolt’s shape is free for reuse again! 09:00:16 <04dracoomega> Yeah, single-target effects that have a high chance to do literally nothing (especially against the things you most care about them doing something) makes them awkward unless their effects are super dramatic. 09:00:32 <04dracoomega> And a variety of 'mildly impair enemy' just doesn't cut it usually 09:00:53 <06pleasingfungus> hailstorm shaped hex is a sudden rainstorm. affected enemies are soggy and demoralized 09:01:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> meanwhile mass hexes are in a weird spot based on what they check, c.f. metabolic doesn't actually check willpower but anguish does 09:01:10 <04dracoomega> But, say, Cause Fear actually seems fine despite not really killing anything and often whiffing because of the AoE 09:01:16 <06pleasingfungus> this gives them special dialogue 09:01:18 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also alistair's...) 09:01:21 <06pleasingfungus> no effect otherwise 09:01:55 <06pleasingfungus> i’ve seen folx unhappy about cause fear tbh 09:02:21 <04dracoomega> From which direction? 09:02:26 <06pleasingfungus> partially because of scroll overlap and partially because of the feeling that it’s unsatisfying to use 09:02:45 <04dracoomega> (I do kinda think that it's by-far the best thing hexslinger currently has, of course >.>) 09:02:55 <06pleasingfungus> i haven’t cast it in i don’t know how long 09:02:57 <06pleasingfungus> so can’t comment 09:03:13 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> when cause fear stopped allowing shooting at things running away it ended up being... very weird for a starting book thing, I will admit 09:03:29 <04dracoomega> You can use it to 'kite' a single enemy if you need to, it lets you bail on situations, thin out enemies so that you have time to kill some before they return again... 09:03:57 <06pleasingfungus> sure sure it’s strong 09:03:59 <04dracoomega> (I do think that getting it castable reasonably early means neglecting ranged skill too long and is awkward in that regard, though) 09:04:02 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> of course it also requires casting a level 4 hex successfully when weapons skill wanted- 09:04:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> yeah that 09:04:12 <06pleasingfungus> idk it’s far down my list of issues 09:04:19 <04dracoomega> So that even if you do end up getting it usable, you then have to rely on it too much since you struggle to kill without it 09:04:32 <04dracoomega> Maybe that's part of the unsatisfaction? 09:04:42 <04dracoomega> Have a weak attacker constantly needing to bounce things around to do stuff with it 09:05:10 <04dracoomega> (A thing that would surely be improved by having more immediately imactful spells up to that point!) 09:05:48 <06pleasingfungus> ok, searching the roguelike discord shows elliptic being mildly positive about fear 09:06:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...why doesn't elliptic talk much in ##-dev anymore?) 09:06:42 <06pleasingfungus> shrug 09:07:24 <06pleasingfungus> hellmo called it ‘op’, noted the awkwardness of the power cap and the overlap with the scroll 09:07:33 <06pleasingfungus> that’s as far back as i’m going 09:07:45 <06pleasingfungus> don’t see as much negativity as i remembered 09:08:04 <06pleasingfungus> does feel low priority 09:09:02 <04dracoomega> Silly idea that would need iteration if there's even any merit to it: Shooting Gallery: mid-level translocation/(hexes?) with a hailstorm-ish targeter that tries to scatter all the enemies it affects around the edges of LoS in all directions and then roots you in place for several turns 09:09:16 <08nicolae> lmao 09:09:33 <04dracoomega> The idea being to give you time to shoot at them, but not make it a better dispersal in terms of escape 09:09:40 <04dracoomega> Since it also intrinsically surrounds you 09:10:41 <04dracoomega> (But I don't know if, in practice, it still ends up being too easy to use it against a single target and still run in [some] direction?) 09:10:50 <04dracoomega> Or keep reusing against them 09:11:16 <06pleasingfungus> ha 09:14:55 <04dracoomega> That earlier suggestion of a Portal Projectile that makes your normal shots also hit the marked target is rather cute, but I do worry that there's a very thin line of like... making it good in specific situations while also not something you're inefficient with if you're not regularly using all the time to 'double' your effective damage output? 09:15:01 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...the idea of that at least being a good god invo just reminds me of the stoat soup archer god, which also just makes me wonder about how dith is a poor stabber / stealth god, and about how no gods are really supporting the new talismans stuff) 09:15:14 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (lots of gods were mythologically grabbags...) 09:15:47 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (I guess dith is secretly an archer god anyway because the shadow mimic hits harder with ranged weapons than melee.) 09:16:07 <06pleasingfungus> we just had the dith discussion earlier this week! 09:16:11 <08nicolae> pakellas. god of talismans. 09:16:20 <08nicolae> pakellas is back. in forms form. 09:16:32 <06pleasingfungus> pog 09:16:42 <08nicolae> pog form. you become a transporter. 09:17:07 <06pleasingfungus> design-wise, sounds like a heavy lift 09:17:36 <03implojin> i think, broadly, the category of "gap creation spells" tend to fit better as consumables, because if you theme them as spells you have to be much more careful to design around "how is this thing going to cause problems when players use it to infinitely kite" 09:18:01 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> just need more equivalents of -Blink :P 09:20:19 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (I was pondering more of, like. the benevolent version of chaos versus xom's malevolent version of chaos, that randomly gives a small choice of gifts of almost anything outside of spells and then boosts you doing that for a while) 09:20:39 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (which would also include talismans) 09:23:37 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...though, as I say that, that as a xom additional overhaul instead of there being a God of Passive Random Effects, Mostly Bad would also be kind of neat. xom definitely should be interested in shapeshifting in some form.) 09:31:53 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...what, not shitposty enough? does it need to be in the format of pakellas, we are dying in a hostile land of beafts, we need divine aid I'm feeling... either you operate the equivalent of three crossbows in two hands, or you turn your hands into blades) 09:36:38 <06pleasingfungus> hellmo’s been talking about xom rework 09:36:42 <06pleasingfungus> bold imo 09:37:16 <06pleasingfungus> unclear to me if there is a passionate xom fanbase who we’d offend 09:37:23 <06pleasingfungus> reddit suggests maybe 09:38:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...almost wonder if it could be a god of, like, "shuffle non-highest skills around temporarily, with choices of temp item gifts and a temporary invocation based around that interest", so your strategy or support pick-ups vary significantly from branch to branch. then it could fit evokables, ranged combat, shapeshifting, the different weapon stuff wu jian initially was going to use...) 09:38:55 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> I thought the xom fanbase disappeared when zotclock didn't let mummies sit in the temple and mostly die 09:42:04 <09hellmonk> The people I've talked to that like xom do seem to enjoy the random bullshit and want there to be more xom actions 09:42:11 <06pleasingfungus> yeah that. 09:42:23 <06pleasingfungus> also i think lici is the only xom fan i regularly talk to 09:42:31 <04dracoomega> I mean, 'randomly shuffle your aptitudes, but temporarily buff whatever new thing you do, so you need to suddenly adapt' is kind of random bullshit, but also useful? 09:42:32 <06pleasingfungus> but i suspect more are out there 09:42:52 <04dracoomega> Like, not as the only thing Xom does or whatever, maybe, but 09:42:56 <06pleasingfungus> think they like the monocles and the fleeing stairs and the cloud traiks 09:44:05 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...now I'm just remembering a pretty good game designer on many other fronts only coming to roguelikes via severe adom and nethack modding, so they only played dsck and never got a rune) 10:07:29 03elliptic02 07* 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa: Remove rC+ from storm dragons (acrobat). 10(89 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/071a6c1ffac6 10:20:55 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa (34) 12:19:14 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> another couple of days, another wall of text of loose ideas not ready to be permanent and public, that'll get barely any comments on it, except this one's not even really a passion focus compared to my current "fix old vaults and make new portals" area. oh well? 12:19:15 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1139276792394420376/message.txt 13:48:25 New branch created: pull/3248 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3248 13:48:26 03Medrano8302 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3248 * 0.31-a0-486-gb0fb7149c5: New option use_terminal_default_colours 10(18 minutes ago, 4 files, 44+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b0fb7149c505 15:26:03 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa (34) 22:35:00 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa (34) 22:56:53 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa 23:15:46 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa (34) 23:54:53 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-523-g071a6c1ffa