00:49:21 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 01:09:53 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-2224-ge85123b8ae 03:23:11 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 05:28:56 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.31-a0-496-g6f97920 (34) 06:57:13 New branch created: pull/3242 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3242 06:57:13 03Nephila Hirsch Oliveira02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3242 * 0.31-a0-497-g84c5238924: Stop monsters applying Flux enchant to each other (fix issue 3241) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/84c523892446 07:00:24 03Nephila Hirsch Oliveira02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3242 * 0.31-a0-498-g6349cb2469: Delete modules.xml 10(26 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6349cb24699e 07:02:30 03Nephila Hirsch Oliveira02 {PleasingFungus} 07* 0.31-a0-497-ga81648d2db: Only apply Flux contam on player attacks 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a81648d2db03 07:04:37 03PleasingFungus02 07[three-dog-night] * 0.31-a0-498-g1639ab2bfb: Re-add Summon Butterflies 10(15 hours ago, 16 files, 60+ 27-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1639ab2bfbf2 07:04:37 03PleasingFungus02 07[three-dog-night] * 0.31-a0-499-gaa061ecd77: New unique: Jeremiah, Barachi Dreamer 10(13 hours ago, 19 files, 150+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aa061ecd77c9 07:04:37 03PleasingFungus02 07[three-dog-night] * 0.31-a0-500-g1429a6065e: Colourize Jeremiah 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1429a6065e6a 07:17:11 03PleasingFungus02 07[three-dog-night] * 0.31-a0-501-gbfed1dfc05: Reduce Jeremiah's XP modifier 10(10 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bfed1dfc05f1 07:20:44 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-497-ga81648d2db (34) 09:26:12 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> I like the Michael tile recolouring :P 09:29:34 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (butterflies where it matters is cool, highly specific weapon is cool, another not-covered player species is cool, yet there's something lacking about the total package? hmm. not sure what I'd pin it on.) 09:32:14 <04dracoomega> Out of curiosity, I don't suppose anyone knows off-hand what bug resulted in unarmed damage being wildly underestimated by fsim in 0.30 (but seems fine in trunk) 09:32:35 <04dracoomega> I couldn't find anything related on a check of the commit logs 09:32:50 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also I guess there might have been discussion elsewhere about a summoning spell on a slow-moving unique being awkward and getting a passive aura of it or something) 09:33:09 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...not that this seems to trouble gastronok :P) 09:35:48 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also, for the record, I personally feel these days the right gimmick count is exactly three.) 09:39:23 <06pleasingfungus> happy that someone noticed that 🙂 09:40:10 <06pleasingfungus> gastronok is more focused on airstrike imo 09:40:17 <06pleasingfungus> just does the big bops 09:40:44 <06pleasingfungus> (q) is that really very different from smiting (a) maybe? 09:41:03 <06pleasingfungus> DO: not off the top of my head, sorry 09:41:25 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> there's a slightly recognizable difference between a speed 5 thing rolling 2d(18-34) and regular speed stuff rolling 7-17 09:41:45 <04dracoomega> I couldn't find anything relevant under a bunch of search terms, so I almost wonder if it was something that unknowingly broke and then was unknowingly fixed again by something else, but who knows? 09:41:47 <04dracoomega> Just an idle curiousity 09:42:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (gastronok is weird because he's the only early slow avoidable monster anymore besides worms after the goliath beetle and random weakling golems and giant slugs and agate snails were cut, but you can't kite him at all like those, but you can still flee trivially outside of the slim slow roll chance?) 09:42:50 <04dracoomega> Well, Gastronok is possibly the unique that a player is most able to opt to just not fight in the whole game. Presumably Jerimiah is a less somewhat less of that 09:44:39 <04dracoomega> ....actually, if it blinks away from you, maybe not? I don't know. 09:44:59 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (roxanne technically is more optional, but that is her point also) 09:45:02 <06pleasingfungus> i think j is probably similar 09:45:09 <05icoson> does anyone know what the value for unrands is in having both a DBRAND and a DESCRIP? Is it just ordering? 09:45:09 <06pleasingfungus> but not sure 09:45:29 <06pleasingfungus> iirc it’s a small ordering / formatting thing 09:45:31 <05icoson> "Use DBRAND for unusual brands." is all I can find 09:50:34 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> ...gleh, there sure are poor sorting tools on github for looking over the extremely large number of dcss branches at this point 09:51:12 <06pleasingfungus> what are you looking for? 09:53:03 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> all the other implemented-and-then-tossed-aside unique sketches 09:54:17 <04dracoomega> Welp, I found the bug. And it still exists. 09:54:46 <04dracoomega> Well, I guess 'bug' is ambiguous since having some way to do this is nice 09:55:01 <04dracoomega> But if you fsim while unarmed, it uses your quivered throwing weapon if you have one instead (and doesn't really tell you) 09:55:15 <04dracoomega> And I just didn't have one quivered in the trunk version I was testing it against 09:56:14 <04dracoomega> Now, fsimming throwing weapons is useful sometimes also, but I suspect this is... unexpected behavior? 09:56:46 <04dracoomega> I only noticed when I did the full fsim scaling chart option and it said it was using throwing skill 09:57:52 <04dracoomega> Maybe it's fine to keep it this way and just print a line at the start of the fsim result of what weapon it's using, just to clarify?? 10:07:01 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> a line that could also record whichever target it was, in case of ambiguity of target in overly short or typo'd lines (orc w gets... wizard first, huh.) 10:16:05 <06pleasingfungus> oops 10:16:08 <06pleasingfungus> interesting that it shows up there 10:16:13 <06pleasingfungus> just deleted and undeleted it 10:17:48 <06pleasingfungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a9dcbafdee3ebe2ea8ab12373019283efb2e4c9 huh, i forgot about this one 10:19:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> prototype armataur long tongue in the other direction, huh. 10:19:49 <06pleasingfungus> something like that yeah 10:19:58 <06pleasingfungus> i still sort of like the idea 10:20:05 <06pleasingfungus> maybe not for ba 10:20:16 <06pleasingfungus> would be very funny to put it on at actually 10:20:23 <06pleasingfungus> stronger potion effects, but slower 10:20:45 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (draco was talking about how slow scroll read barely matters on... AT? okay.) 10:21:34 <06pleasingfungus> oh yeah it's totally cosmetic 10:21:43 <06pleasingfungus> i knew that when i added it, just popped it in anyway on a whim 10:21:47 <06pleasingfungus> expected someone to remove it 10:21:52 <04dracoomega> Haha 10:22:16 <04dracoomega> Thing is: a place I would have expected it to matter a lot - teleport - doesn't much at all because the delay happens after the buff applies to you and not before 10:23:16 <04dracoomega> (A couple other very minor downsides. I wouldn't say it's quite cosmetic, but closer than I expected it to be) 10:24:53 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> ...I see the answer to "it's quite annoying browsing through all these branches to find old implemented ideas" was "delete them" 10:25:29 <06pleasingfungus> i just like cleaning up my branches 10:25:30 <06pleasingfungus> it feels tidy 10:25:37 <06pleasingfungus> i'm not touching other folx' 10:25:40 <06pleasingfungus> also i get to find old weird ideas 10:25:41 <06pleasingfungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b29e811947f1f1cf2203253465f59130d574bb70 10:25:59 <06pleasingfungus> 08:05:06 re: adamant, i sort of feel like "shields blocking things that shields don't normally block" is better just kept in unrand territory, it seems like a quite substantial difference in type of effect compared to other egos 10:26:13 <06pleasingfungus> i wonder if this was pre or post warlock's mirror 10:26:29 <06pleasingfungus> ah, about six months post 10:57:05 <04dracoomega> I wonder if the message log thinks we've gotten the point yet 10:57:06 <04dracoomega> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1138531342255145000/image.png 10:57:38 <04dracoomega> (Only part of this is my fault; it seems like some of the fsim long output code wasn't updated when ranged weapons stopping having ammo, and it thinks all launchers are also launching themselves) 10:58:35 <06pleasingfungus> nice 11:05:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> now just imagining a dancing weapon unique doing the living spells thing except it's a whirlwind of ranged weapons making one-shot dancing ranged weapons 11:19:02 03PleasingFungus02 07[three-dog-night] * 0.31-a0-502-gce8967f658: Jeremiah: Ring of Butterflies (elliptic) 10(2 minutes ago, 5 files, 40+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ce8967f65846 11:19:02 03PleasingFungus02 07[three-dog-night] * 0.31-a0-503-g97b63329a0: Revert "Re-add Summon Butterflies" 10(16 seconds ago, 16 files, 27+ 60-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/97b63329a082 11:22:11 <06pleasingfungus> ha, you and @nicolae should get together 11:24:05 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> should probably get some help on those new portals eventually... 11:26:23 03advil02 07* 0.31-a0-498-gdf853b38fe: fix: use temporary mode for a prompt 10(5 hours ago, 2 files, 6+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df853b38fedc 11:26:23 03advil02 07* 0.31-a0-499-g6b702e47e2: feat: support right click for help in local tiles skill menu 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 9+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6b702e47e226 11:26:23 03advil02 07* 0.31-a0-500-g791ea4fb0e: refactor: show full artefact prop name in long descriptions 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 310+ 195-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/791ea4fb0e9d 11:26:23 03advil02 07* 0.31-a0-501-gc77f77e11d: feat: improve artefact descriptions 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 98+ 56-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c77f77e11dcc 11:27:31 <06pleasingfungus> ooh 11:27:37 <06pleasingfungus> that artefact stuff looks like a lot of work 11:28:01 <06pleasingfungus> lol at the example DESCRIP 11:29:13 <05icoson> just working with existing themes 11:29:25 <05icoson> yeah, the artefact description code is involved 11:29:32 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-502-g902d8d2af8: Don't give accuracy to Me foes (elliptic, acrobat) 10(10 minutes ago, 5 files, 11+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/902d8d2af846 11:29:36 <06pleasingfungus> very sorry about the hardcoded unrand formatting 11:29:45 <06pleasingfungus> not my finest hour 11:29:50 <05icoson> heh 11:30:08 <05icoson> took me a while to figure out that it was hardcoded like that 11:31:05 <05icoson> it almost worked, most of the time! 11:35:32 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-502-g902d8d2af8 (34) 11:42:06 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.31-a0-503-gdf1e9e4a2e: A few minor improvements to quick fsim text output 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 19+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df1e9e4a2ec2 11:42:38 <06pleasingfungus> The Return 11:42:55 <04dracoomega> An illustrious, game-changing commit, no doubt 11:43:02 <06pleasingfungus> only the finest 11:43:19 <06pleasingfungus> even bigger than 6cfc4c83a9dbdddcebd1ba11f23e9404131ac251 11:43:23 <04dracoomega> Also: trying to figure out how these github authentication tokens work was surprisingly fiddly. And it still seems wrong, as the website lists the author as www >.> 11:43:46 <06pleasingfungus> interesting 11:43:56 <04dracoomega> Weird that the bot seems to get it right and it doesn't 11:44:30 <06pleasingfungus> anyway if you'd just waited seven more months you could have made it an even decade between commits 11:44:31 <06pleasingfungus> blunder imo 11:45:02 <04dracoomega> Geez, that long, huh? 11:45:47 <04dracoomega> (I don't suppose you have any idea why github is wrong about my identity or what to do about it? Info on using those tokens was really fuzzy and sometimes contradictory) 11:46:04 <06pleasingfungus> hm, let me look real fast 11:46:09 <04dracoomega> Believe it or not, I haven't actually pushed anything to any github before 11:46:18 <06pleasingfungus> i will choose to believe it 11:46:45 <04dracoomega> (All code I've pushed since old Crawl days happens to be on bitbucket) 11:49:22 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-503-gdf1e9e4a2e (34) 11:50:50 <06pleasingfungus> so one note here is that you have your email configured as a@a.com in git. that might not matter, though 11:52:35 <06pleasingfungus> looks like you're set up there in the MAILMAP 11:52:40 <06pleasingfungus> DracoOmega 11:52:44 <06pleasingfungus> so that's why the bot gets it right 11:53:48 <06pleasingfungus> not sure about github, having spent a few minutes digging 11:54:04 <06pleasingfungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commits?author=www out of curiosity, were these old starspawned changes you? 12:04:07 03Implojin02 07* 0.31-a0-504-gdd471462e6: New tiles icon for pain bond (CanOfWorms) 10(6 minutes ago, 5 files, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dd471462e668 12:04:26 <04dracoomega> ...yes, actually that looks like stuff I wrote before I was officially a dev myself? The initial new absyss monsters in 0.12? 12:06:20 <04dracoomega> Still confusing 12:06:42 <04dracoomega> (Of course, none of the commits that are listed in github under DracoOmega link to the account I have, now that I have one. I wonder how other people's older stuff did?) 12:11:10 <03semi_tonal> github isn't great about keeping track of account changes i don't think, all my old stuff is just stranded and doesn't link to any account/show up in the repo stats etc 12:12:03 <04dracoomega> Huh. I thought I saw that some people's did match, but I guess I don't know 12:12:29 <04dracoomega> Though I would definitely appreciate new stuff actually showing up under my account name in any capacity 12:13:19 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (highly mixed feelings about everything I did becoming somehow even more obfuscated in the github move, myself) 12:13:59 <06pleasingfungus> chaos reigns 12:14:49 <03semi_tonal> it probably works in a bunch of different ways depending on how the changes are set up, yeah. i know when i changed my github account name it did give me a warning that doing so would everything 12:17:10 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> genderwork always vexing in every context, somehow 12:20:06 <04dracoomega> (I tried to access the email address used in most of my old commits and it seems to not even exist at all anymore somehow) 12:20:33 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-504-gdd471462e6 (34) 12:23:07 <04dracoomega> And it's apparently impossible to recreate it. And now that I seem to have figured out how to get github to associate old commits, it requires acknowledging a verification email to an email that does not and cannot exist 12:23:18 <04dracoomega> So I guess that doesn't work 12:23:32 <04dracoomega> I should actually make something that can get associated with this before I push anything else, though 12:23:58 <04dracoomega> (Er, not that I actually have anything else ready to push yet, to be clear. But just on principle :P) 13:01:31 <06pleasingfungus> also i might windmill slam jerry in soon if no one stops me, so would love to hear opinions first 13:01:41 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-505-gf982180d95: Credit NephaliaWeaver 10(24 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f982180d95d5 13:01:42 <06pleasingfungus> > Jeremiah (F) | Spd: 10 (move: 120%) | HD: 8 | HP: 71-102 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 10 | weapons, items, doors, priest, amphibious, evil, cold-blooded | Res: will(40), drown | Corpse | XP: 728 | Sp: blink range [!AM, !sil], smiting (7-17) [!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. current stat block 13:01:49 <06pleasingfungus> spawns d:6-9 13:02:01 <06pleasingfungus> with an enchanted draining glaive 13:18:44 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-505-gf982180d95 (34) 14:09:43 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-506-g3d79149578: New unique: Jeremiah, Barachi Dreamer 10(20 hours ago, 20 files, 178+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3d7914957889 14:46:09 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-506-g3d79149578 (34) 15:16:05 <09gammafunk> Now we just need Grunt to come back 15:26:01 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.31-a0-506-g3d79149578 (34) 15:39:20 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> Draco and I have enough plans to work on without needing somebody else to make a whole branch, leave it to us to fix it, and then leave it to us to dismantle and spread it around again 15:40:52 and likewise for a god 15:42:15 <04dracoomega> Harsh 15:43:12 <04dracoomega> (I am typing up more specific Yred proposal stuff right now, in fact. But this keeps getting too long and I need to find some way to condense >.>) 15:44:43 <04dracoomega> There's the specific thrust of the idea and its reasoning, but then also a whole slew of 'maybe 2 out of 5 of these things, that each have sub-variants???' so it's hard to put into just a sentence or two 16:29:27 <09gammafunk> We have been using the github wiki as a replacement for the old doku wiki for proposals, and it it does work reasonably well. You can even clone and push to it if you prefer editing locally. 16:31:14 <04dracoomega> Honestly, I was thinking something more impromptu for discussion on a couple points here first >.> 16:33:05 <09gammafunk> fair enough. ebering might have some time to give some thoughts as well when you post your summary. He was the one who reworked yred 17:27:34 New branch created: gimmickrael (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/gimmickrael 17:27:34 03hellmonk02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-507-g957201eb88: gimmick unique proof of concept 10(2 minutes ago, 9 files, 50+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/957201eb8828 17:38:40 <06pleasingfungus> wow 17:38:54 <06pleasingfungus> can we give them a real name though 17:40:44 <08nicolae> Gupoc 17:40:51 <08nicolae> Gimmick Unique Proof Of Concept 17:42:13 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-507-gbafd7f5274: Fix: don't make flux suppress intrinsics (elliptic) 10(77 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bafd7f5274f9 17:44:44 Hey, I'm new to trying to contribute to DCSS. I'm working on setting up a bug repro; is there any way to edit in items in a debug build? I was able to figure out editing in dungeon features, but didn't see anything for items. 17:46:54 <08nicolae> you mean like create an item in the middle of playing? 17:48:45 Yeah; if not, it's not a big deal, I just need to find a scroll of magic mapping/revelation. 17:48:58 Just was hoping to save a few minutes. 17:49:07 <06pleasingfungus> you probably want &% or the other one 17:49:10 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-507-gbafd7f5274 (34) 17:49:13 <06pleasingfungus> hit &? for instructions 17:49:17 <06pleasingfungus> though it's a bit of a maze 17:49:34 Ah, thanks! 17:50:30 <06pleasingfungus> no prob! 17:50:37 <06pleasingfungus> excited to hear the bug 🙂 17:53:04 Luckily, it's not a bug I encountered. I just picked one out of the github issues. Unluckily, if I'm not able to repro it locally, it may be a webtiles only bug... and that would frustrate being able to dive in with gdb 17:53:45 03PleasingFungus02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-508-gef876c84cc: Abjure Djrael's Abjuration 10(9 seconds ago, 4 files, 21+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ef876c84cc84 17:56:54 03PleasingFungus02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-509-g0b7a5c9f33: Speak up! 10(68 seconds ago, 1 file, 13+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b7a5c9f3318 17:56:54 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> ...is that a tag for the rupert / xtahua roar style of thing? 17:57:12 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> also battlecry I guess. 17:57:49 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (when I read only the unique title at first I had been wondering if this was a unique orGan and was reminded of talking with Draco about how very weak glowing orange brains feel these days for Depths and slime relative to even the boggarts they ousted) 17:59:24 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also about how nearly every eye works differently) 18:00:53 <06pleasingfungus> brains, boggars and gooes need love, imo 18:02:09 03PleasingFungus02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-510-gf79239332f: Reorder monster spell hotkeys (hellmonk) 10(38 seconds ago, 3 files, 8+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f79239332fc8 18:02:10 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> since there's no draining eyes it's clearly time to make orbs of eyes lose drain magic and instead finally pick up polymorph to match shining eyes 18:02:53 Yeup, was unable to repro the bug locally. Is there any convenient way to set up a repro on webtiles? 18:03:24 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also brains and orbs would be helped by that Will/2ing energy bolt from Slime eyes of devastation, sometimes. maybe with a special-case banding to attach them together there?...) 18:03:29 <06pleasingfungus> zoronius: yeah it's not too bad 18:03:31 <06pleasingfungus> there's instructions in uh 18:03:34 <06pleasingfungus> webserver/README.md 18:03:59 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (boggarts are fine they're just lair oods now) 18:04:15 <06pleasingfungus> python3 -m virtualenv -p python3 webserver/venv . ./webserver/venv/bin/activate pip install -r webserver/requirements/dev.py3.txt then you run crawl (as normal) and then navigate your browser to localhost:8080/ 18:04:21 <06pleasingfungus> and bob's your uncle 18:04:47 <06pleasingfungus> r-i one day i will calculate the ratio of normal to crossed-out messages you send 18:04:50 <06pleasingfungus> and then you will be in big trouble 18:05:14 Thanks! I was in the docs directory, and didn't think to look in the source subfolders 18:05:34 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> in trouble for clarifying in text which statements are "I'd like this / somewhat actually think this but I'm not actually pushing for it" or not? 18:05:39 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> terrifying 18:18:12 04Build failed for 08gimmickrael @ 957201eb 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/5803386047 18:26:14 03PleasingFungus02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-511-gc98450e651: Lint 10(45 seconds ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c98450e65100 18:30:17 04Build failed for 08gimmickrael @ ef876c84 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/5803562018 18:35:07 <04dracoomega> Well, there is a temporary lull in Annoying Life Duties, so I will try to ramble about Yred a bit 18:36:47 <04dracoomega> During the conversation the other day, and talking to others, it feels like there's broad agreement about some of Yred's current issues - eg: really bad at start of floors, awkward opportunity cost value for most of his actives with the zombie system. I've played more Yred and a handful of conventional necromancers since then and I feel my thoughts are coalescing into something I'd like feedback on. It's a bit of an involved set of 18:36:48 changes, but current Yred is neither very popular nor especially powerful, so I think it's fine to shake things up a bit? 18:36:49 <04dracoomega> Old Yred's entire identity was about leading a growing persistant army. Obviously that's been cut for power reasons (among other things) and isn't coming back. But I think it's possible to get some of that spirit while also feeling more distinct from just animating the zombies with necromancy magic that anyone can use. This proposal is aimed at addressing several mentioned issues simultaneously: more use of non-derived undead from 18:36:50 Yred, options for being caught flat-footed and new floors that don't depend on simply 'already being on top of things', along with a focus on 'leading from the front' instead of the relatively safer/common necromancy approach of tossing a whole lot of things at the enemy and trying to stay out of their way. 18:37:18 04Build failed for 08gimmickrael @ 0b7a5c9f 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/5803576561 18:38:35 <04dracoomega> So. Yred's always had that 'carry the black torch' motif going on in their language? What if that was a mechanical thing? Yred as a god of militant death - of leading an army under their banner and sweeping out as an inexorable tide across the land. The first ability you gain from joining is 'Light the black torch', which is usable a single time per floor. It gives you several immediate temporary non-derived undead (based on invo 18:38:36 and maybe xl?) to help get the black tide rolling. This helps shore up Yred's weaknesses at new floors and for characters who don't have the personal power to even get the ball rolling easily (but unlike the earlier suggestion of just giving temporary gifts per floor, the player does get to choose when is the time to start it, avoiding the chance of whiffing if there are no enemies near the stairs) 18:42:01 <04dracoomega> Yred's other abilities mostly still rely on a per-floor resource counter instead of piety (like now), but aren't tied to sacrificing zombies (unlike now) and thus don't have to compete against simply keeping them and can allow player options even when the army is faltering. Instead, you are harvesting souls when you kill things, and these are used to fuel the torch (and pay for other god powers). The zombies are just bodies and 18:42:01 useful footsoldiers; they are not what you are harvesting for Yred. The more things you kill, the darker the torch grows (enabling you to do other things with it), but this flame is still lost when you leave the floor. Effectively, Yred appreciates you being able to start a conquest at a time of your choosing and then carry it to its conclusion without having to show 'weakness' by retreating entirely from a floor until the battle is done. 18:43:13 04Build failed for 08gimmickrael @ f7923933 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/5803614883 18:45:53 <06pleasingfungus> @dracoomega fyi that deleting comments doesn’t work that well here, since they get mirrored to irc 18:47:26 <09gammafunk> plus I have committed them all to memory 18:52:16 <09hellmonk> honestly the idea sounded kinda good, I do think you have to be very careful about balancing the once per floor summon allies ability so it doesn't become "going yred instantly solves the hardest fight on every floor for free" 18:52:38 <09hellmonk> but I'm a big fan of 1/floor big effect that you then want to stay on the floor to make use of, good play pattern imo 19:04:06 <04dracoomega> Sorry, sorry. I tried to trim it down from what I'd first written a bunch, but I realized it was still coming out way longer than I thought (and there was still more to come!) and probably should just be a link to a google doc or something 19:04:11 <04dracoomega> (And then something came up >.>) 19:06:07 <06pleasingfungus> no need to apologize 19:06:33 <06pleasingfungus> just letting you know that deletion doesn’t really work here 🙂 19:06:42 <06pleasingfungus> for our beloved irc friends 19:06:50 <04dracoomega> I really have no idea how the IRC mirroring for long stuff works, either. I guess I flood some people's screens, huh? >.> 19:07:13 <04dracoomega> Anyway, here's the gist of what was already said (I think!) and some more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xqNLlPqcq_kXZ3ewO8dk2l_fEqVuGV0gSS6I4gjvdcc/edit?usp=sharing 19:07:43 <04dracoomega> The ability specifics get increasingly vague. Like, I have ideas, but there's more ideas than there are slots, and there's a lot of details that have multiple options, so it's something to iterate through 19:08:35 <04dracoomega> The idea here though, is that your torch power gain doesn't happen until after you light the torch, so you can't save it always for the 'one hard fight', as you're not gaining your other powers until you turn it on 19:08:55 <04dracoomega> So if you save it most of a floor, you get a lot less overall value and less piety also 19:09:20 <04dracoomega> But it lets you choose when a good time to start is (since stair-dipping often means you're not ready immediately, or no enemies of value may be nearby, etc.) 19:10:00 <04dracoomega> Can give cute messages when you first leave a floor and trigger piety gain, also. Like "Yred is very pleased with your conquest of [floor].", "Yred is disappointed with your conquest of [floor].", etc 19:10:05 <06pleasingfungus> important question 19:10:13 <06pleasingfungus> do we get a new hu^yred title 19:10:21 <04dracoomega> Does it have a unique one right now? 19:11:05 <06pleasingfungus> well, obviously, what it should be is the Human Torch 19:11:15 <06pleasingfungus> i think that’d be fantastic. 19:11:24 <04dracoomega> Hahahaha 19:11:43 <06pleasingfungus> this is the kind of design feedback i give 19:11:53 <06pleasingfungus> only the most insightful wisdom from me 19:12:42 <04dracoomega> Heh 19:13:31 <04dracoomega> I mean, opinions on any of the various specifics outlined later in that link would definitely be appreciated. Stuff that sounds more or less interesting / more or less troubled, etc. 19:17:55 <06pleasingfungus> on mobile atm but will take a look later 🙂 19:19:12 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> I think there's nothing wrong with a god ability that rather resembles a monster thing (ghostly fireball) but behaves differently in player hands (c.f. greater servant versus sgd), so naming it something adjascent and also healing wounded zombies would be cool and unique compared to necro / kiku and not really require monster ones to work that way again 19:19:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> would also help a bunch with how bound souls regularly die easy 19:19:55 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also could be more of the focus of the spell to heal so it's less God Gives Infrequent Direct Damage) 19:22:54 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> ...it's a little silly, but in terms of smaller aura effects and avoiding having too many, using umbra to indicate the new autoreaping radius / buff aura would probably be good if not for profane servitor overlap and also dith's very middling current use of it 19:30:44 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (also, on the piety soft capping of zombie counts by number / hd, making smaller / dying ones rot away could maybe give more hp to newly made ones? it's kinda weird to figure out what a zombie's effective health is going to be in the horde anyway. flashbacks to when yred permanent ghoul allies could just eat corpses for more health until they could duel cerebov, but it's probably fine due to the floor limits.) 19:33:31 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (I hadn't actually seen much of this doc since I've been sketching out portals and trying to chisel away at Other Game UI, tbh) 19:49:30 <04dracoomega> I do kind of like the 'dark mirror of good gods' thing you mention and already thought that umbra would be a fitting aura indicator. I mean, profane servitors were an old iconic Yred capstone. Dith using it is... well, Dith is apparently slated for Something Ambitious, so I have no idea. This doesn't need to use umbra specifically, of course, but it is a sort of amusing consequence if it did that getting a servitor when you Light the 19:49:30 Torch could actually extend your effective reaping and buffing range while it was still there. Feels kind of suiting for one of Yred's greatest servents marching in your banner 19:49:52 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> rather than just "oh boy I got the fast vampiric Huge HP Wall" 19:50:18 <04dracoomega> Also: I don't think Yred ghouls could ever actually duel Cerebov. Someone was just irrationally worried at the possibility of someone with endless time and no sense trying to do so 19:50:32 <04dracoomega> By spending half their life feeding abyss corpses at them 19:51:00 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> surely a bush with 6000 HP can technically duel cerebov just by the fact they'd eventually just fire storm themselves to death? :P 19:51:00 <04dracoomega> This is before Pan even had demonspawn to provide corpses 19:51:28 <04dracoomega> While you're not wrong, how many corpses would it take to give it that much hp? 19:51:33 <04dracoomega> I really don't think they gained very much per 19:52:17 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (now I'm just thinking of the stupid, stupid way that every chrome pyramid can just die to guaranteed-as-plot-rewards hologram bracelet shenanigans) 19:53:16 <06pleasingfungus> dark torch aura sounds super fun and evocative 19:54:16 <06pleasingfungus> limiting reanimation to kills made in the aura makes sense to me - definitely don’t think we should limit to direct kills, though 19:55:16 <06pleasingfungus> not sure about progressive buffs, that sounds even more snowbally - don’t think we need to push that further :p 19:55:46 <04dracoomega> I didn't mean like... keeping them. I meant brief might or battlecry-like effects 19:56:11 <04dracoomega> Empowering things near you while you fight alongside them 19:56:19 <04dracoomega> Every now and then 19:56:21 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...now I'm just imagining mass zombie sprint.) 19:56:33 <06pleasingfungus> maybe ? i still worry about it a little 19:56:41 <06pleasingfungus> not sure what it’s accomplishing 19:57:21 <04dracoomega> It is a fair concern. The idea was to encourage a 'lead from the front' sort of thing, where you wanted to be close to them to help make them more useful in a general sense. Of course, reaping only happening while close to them does also help on that front, I suppose 19:57:52 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (now that I think about it it sure is weird that generated hostile zombies are all fast picks yet the bulk of what player dks / necromancers will collect are the slow hordes) 19:58:35 <04dracoomega> But by specifically giving brief buffs to nearby undead allies based on damage you are doing yourself rather than them (which reaping itself obviously doesn't care about) I think it incentives something slightly different things 19:58:40 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (give or take the handful of giants for generic extended picks and ice cave simulacra rolling for hydragons) 19:59:24 <04dracoomega> You land a big blow or cast a big blasty spell and your nearby troops growl (moan? wail?) their wrath alongside you 19:59:56 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> burble 20:00:02 <04dracoomega> Heh 20:01:44 <06pleasingfungus> howl! 20:05:19 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (neither draco nor I have gotten an uskayaw win yet, as the more prominent extant "do passive stuff based off of big / sustained damage" space, I'd have to admit, so knowing exactly how well that works out is... fuzzy.) 20:05:22 <06pleasingfungus> vaguely suspect that getting multiple bound souls working wouldn’t be too bad, but feel like it’s dilute the feel a little maybe 20:06:06 <04dracoomega> Bind Soul is definitely the most iconic and cool existing Yred mechanic, so that obviously stays. Doing more with it is neat, but it's sort of like... at what point does that step on Hep's toes or not, you know? 20:06:25 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> clearly when you bind a soul you get a bunch of random other bound souls from the same glyph and hd space, what could go wrong aside from the lack of graphics for another million tiles 20:06:26 <04dracoomega> (Getting a second one does allow combinatorics! >.>) 20:06:39 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (okay we could just recolour the spectral tiles purple.) 20:06:47 <04dracoomega> I mean, bound souls already all have basically one tile. ...two tiles? 20:10:04 <06pleasingfungus> i think just one. 20:10:23 <04dracoomega> I could have sworn a saw something with a different tile, but I might be wrong 20:12:13 <04dracoomega> Tested in wizmode and there is at least two 20:13:03 <04dracoomega> Okay, there is 3 20:13:08 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3cb23609061229f62c55de776b2cbbd83af7c8c8 20:13:12 <04dracoomega> One for humanoids, one for animals, and one for 'strange' 20:14:09 <04dracoomega> Huh. Bees: officially strange 20:14:15 <06pleasingfungus> they are 20:14:23 <06pleasingfungus> anyway good to know 20:14:33 <06pleasingfungus> glad that i didn't make this commit 20:14:36 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> I like how strange is just ugly things and all the insects, while krakens and crabs count as animals 20:14:38 <06pleasingfungus> would be slightly embarrassing otherwise 20:15:11 <04dracoomega> Oh, I have definitely run into behavior this last month that I was like "I don't remember them doing this!" and then index just looks up a commit to be like "You made them do this." 20:15:47 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (it was Haunt spawns targetting only the haunted monster, I think.) 20:15:59 <04dracoomega> More like them rapidly despawning after the target died 20:16:12 <04dracoomega> Which I had somehow forgotten about entirely, even though I was the one who added it in the first place 20:16:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (after the wraith family went from nothing to... irresistable slowing wall, now?) 20:20:10 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (draco, buffing yred directly and indirectly for many versions) 20:20:37 <04dracoomega> Interlevel recall to make old Yred actually playable was one of the first things I contributed (right after the abyss monsters) 20:20:57 <04dracoomega> Prior to that, Yred may have been strong on paper, but also kind of unplayably miserable 20:21:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> did yred alllllways have all the W glyphs? 20:21:09 <04dracoomega> "Enjoy not being able to use interlevel travel for the rest of the game!" 20:23:13 <06pleasingfungus> lol 20:23:57 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> looks like no shadow wraiths or eidola or phantasmals, like eleven years ago, but there'd still be appreciation for plain / freezing wraith and flayed ghost! 20:31:54 03PleasingFungus02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-512-g1216eb411c: Djrael -> Aisha (Midn8) 10(37 seconds ago, 8 files, 21+ 21-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1216eb411cd0 20:32:57 03PleasingFungus02 07[gimmickrael] * 0.31-a0-513-g4652f7c706: And one more 10(58 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4652f7c706e1 20:51:19 04Build failed for 08gimmickrael @ 1216eb41 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/5804566574 22:35:16 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-507-gbafd7f5274 (34) 22:57:59 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-507-gbafd7f5274 23:51:48 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.31-a0-507-gbafd7f5274 (34) 23:55:04 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-507-gbafd7f5274