00:36:08 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 03:23:10 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 05:07:00 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.31-a0-466-g98c9adc (34) 08:24:10 New branch created: pull/3236 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3236 08:24:10 03MainiacJoe02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3236 * 0.31-a0-467-gb1705cbe11: Add "Somewhere In Here" Sewer entry vaults 1 and 2 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 49+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b1705cbe1176 08:31:30 03MainiacJoe02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3230 * 0.31-a0-462-g68830ca3ee: Nerf monster census for "Four Pools" 10(43 seconds ago, 1 file, 10+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/68830ca3eeda 10:33:48 New branch created: pull/3238 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3238 10:33:49 03MainiacJoe02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3238 * 0.31-a0-467-gfe1be76a26: Add "Dusty Tomb" Ossuary entry 10(58 minutes ago, 1 file, 25+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fe1be76a2642 10:33:49 03MainiacJoe02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3238 * 0.31-a0-468-g6c9fbd7c6f: Add "Find the Door" Ossuary entry. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 20+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6c9fbd7c6f29 10:53:41 03advil02 07* 0.31-a0-467-g74618ad6ef: fix: don't count headers in stash search matches 10(2 days ago, 3 files, 17+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/74618ad6ef76 10:53:41 03advil02 07* 0.31-a0-468-ge939bffe16: fix: don't clear repeats when a monster destroys a floor stack 10(11 minutes ago, 5 files, 13+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e939bffe1615 11:24:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-468-ge939bffe16 (34) 12:21:12 <05icoson> would anyone care if I just remove the jiyva off-level eating as it stands? 12:22:29 <06pleasingfungus> i think i would 12:23:07 <06pleasingfungus> https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1136681431746215936 per this 12:23:23 <06pleasingfungus> like i think it’s bad to encourage j players to stash items 12:35:56 <05icoson> fair 12:36:28 <05icoson> the implementation is just so annoying now that I know about it 12:37:00 <03semi_tonal> i wonder if item eating generally could just be a timed_effect instead of being based on jellies at all, then it could work the same way on-level and off-level (and do a catchup when returning to a level) 12:37:40 <03semi_tonal> could still have jellies wandering around for flavour but make the actual item destruction abstracted 12:38:22 <05icoson> to keep some of the current flavor, could have each item dest event have chance of creating a jelly? 12:38:44 <05icoson> on the other hand, it might be a bit confusing when it happens in los with wandering jellies 12:39:45 <03semi_tonal> that could work yeah, jellies coming up out of the floor and the dungeon turning to slime in general to gobble stuff up 12:46:55 <06pleasingfungus> i want some walls and floors turning to slime 12:47:02 <06pleasingfungus> is that wrong of me 13:10:39 <06pleasingfungus> @nicolae how much work do you think it’d be to put a blade talisman in Blade? 13:11:20 <08nicolae> probably not too hard although i probably can't get to it this weekend 13:25:13 <06pleasingfungus> oh definitely no rush 13:54:28 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-469-gda5c5a71be: Switch Norris's AF_SLEEP for AF_CONFUSE (elliptic) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da5c5a71bebc 13:54:28 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-470-g390c57a952: Make troll leather armour closer to non-troll 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/390c57a952f9 13:54:28 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-471-gbde574a406: Fix Norris's missing band 10(27 seconds ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bde574a406a8 14:06:51 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-471-gbde574a406 (34) 14:48:48 03kate-02 07* 0.31-a0-472-g43a2ca8e1b: Remove an orb of Zot descriptor 10(10 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/43a2ca8e1bf4 14:48:56 <06pleasingfungus> rip 14:50:14 <03semi_tonal> a joke sadly ruined by english grammar not cooperating with it 14:54:46 <06pleasingfungus> english considered severely problematic 15:20:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-472-g43a2ca8e1b (34) 15:24:20 <09hellmonk> Replace with "mediocre" 15:25:23 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.31-a0-472-g43a2ca8e1b (34) 16:36:45 <08nicolae> 1/10 chance to replace the orb of zot with the orb of zehhhhhhhh...t 16:37:03 <08nicolae> it does all the same things but it's just... you know. not the same 18:16:46 03elliptic02 07* 0.31-a0-473-g61b50ae490: Switch the CSET_ASCII character for talismans back to '|'. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/61b50ae49093 18:38:13 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-473-g61b50ae490 (34) 20:34:43 New branch created: pull/3239 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3239 20:34:43 03jjjingleheimer02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3239 * 0.31-a0-461-g98af2e8992: Add tile for player under Glaive of Prune curse 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/98af2e899225 21:04:35 <06pleasingfungus> ??lies[fun 21:04:35 <04Cerebot> lies[1/27]: Eustachio says, "Summoning is fun!" 21:04:44 <09gammafunk> wow first entry 21:04:49 <09gammafunk> probably added by elliptic 21:12:05 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> so many one-off or two-off summon spells for so many uniques, and yet of the ...five? summoning spells currently available to players from before, like, 0.20, it's amazing nothing kept haunt or got canine familiar 21:13:45 <04dracoomega> I wonder if any of that is "We already have a lot of dogs" and "Summon undead overlaps on who'd get it and also summons more interesting undead?" I mean, obviously spawning around you is a meaningful difference, but maybe not meaningful enough in the places where it would normally occur? 21:14:08 <09hellmonk> I think haunt got lost with lich book changes tbh 21:14:13 <09hellmonk> didnt one of them have it 21:14:14 <04dracoomega> Ghostly fire is already another sort of kind of 'spawns around you', I guess 21:14:27 <09gammafunk> was going to blame hungry ghost shenanigens but that's plausible 21:14:27 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I don't think Crypt needs it 21:14:28 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> summoning irresistable slowers and af_vuln directly on top of the player is still Something 21:14:41 <04dracoomega> Yes, I'm not saying it would be irrelevant. Obviously that's not true. 21:14:51 <06pleasingfungus> they seem like reasonable spells to put somewhere 21:14:58 <06pleasingfungus> don't feel strongly 21:14:58 <09hellmonk> haunt as a monster summon seems more or less fine otherwise, may be possible on player ghosts still idk 21:15:02 <06pleasingfungus> probably 21:15:17 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (one of the five books I gave liches when de-panlording them before the great No Multiple Books happened did have haunt) 21:17:29 <09gammafunk> monsters using canine seems like it'd only be appropriate for gnoll monsters and not sure if there's a good target. It'd have to summon multiple doges probably. They're not that interesting as a monster summon and the spell intrinsically has no variety to the summon result 21:17:41 <09hellmonk> depends on when you place it 21:17:52 <09gammafunk> yeah if it's especially early maybe 21:18:07 <09hellmonk> if it's like d4-5 or whatever then summon a hound repeatedly could be a problem 21:18:20 <06pleasingfungus> yeah i was thinking pretty early 21:18:42 <09gammafunk> ??summoner 21:18:43 <04Cerebot> summoner[1/2]: A {mage} background (abbreviated as Su) that starts with the spells {Summon Small Mammal}, {Call Imp}, {Call Canine Familiar}, {Guardian Golem}, and {Summon Lightning Spire}. Also starts with a +0 robe. See {summoning} for details on using summons. 21:18:45 <09hellmonk> I think one problem is that the monsters summoned by ccf are in two pretty distinct difficulty sets s/t you'd want the summoner to only really summon one of them 21:18:48 <06pleasingfungus> yes 21:18:55 <09hellmonk> like hound and wolf/warg are not comparable in danger 21:19:03 <04dracoomega> No need for exact symmetry so long as it's got the spirit, imo 21:19:14 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> summoners never got hostile demons, after all 21:19:15 <04dracoomega> (In fact, exact symmetry in a lot of things has Problems) 21:19:24 <09hellmonk> yeah, you can just make it call hound or whatever (or functionally gate it by spellpower) 21:19:29 <06pleasingfungus> does ccf still include jackal 21:19:33 <09hellmonk> no 21:19:35 <06pleasingfungus> rip 21:19:46 <04dracoomega> Summon cap of 1: enjoy your single jackle 21:19:47 <09hellmonk> removed shortly after it became 1 cap because jackals are god awful 21:20:03 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> would call lesser canine familiar be the longest monster spell name, I wonder 21:20:05 <04dracoomega> Wasn't it removed as that happened? 21:20:12 <09hellmonk> maybe simultaneous, idr 21:20:21 <09hellmonk> either during or immediately after 21:20:26 <09gammafunk> I seem to recall that 0.13 had the summon caps that I believe mumra added but no revamped summon spells. Very sad version for summoner players 21:21:51 <09gammafunk> does seem like a nice idea to give the player an earlier introduction to summoning monsters that's not just eustachio 21:22:24 <09hellmonk> speaking of ccf, I think it feels pretty bad when you're around 50 power currently bc you have a huge power gap between the things you can summon (therefore are incentivized to reset until you get the good one pretty heavily) 21:22:36 <09hellmonk> not really a good way to fix this sadly 21:22:48 <09gammafunk> cerulean hounds 21:22:50 <06pleasingfungus> lol 21:23:11 <06pleasingfungus> my two 'early summoner' ideas were (1) dog caller (2) monster that summons butterflies and then hits you through them in some way (smitey thing or careless beaming) 21:23:23 <06pleasingfungus> latter might be better as a unique, idk 21:23:25 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> alligator snapping jackal 21:23:35 <06pleasingfungus> oh reaching could work too 21:23:35 <04dracoomega> Hmm... does the result you get from casting ccf really need to be random? 21:23:39 <04dracoomega> Or just strictly power-based 21:23:51 <06pleasingfungus> welll 21:23:58 <06pleasingfungus> doesn't that create a huuuuge power threshold 21:24:08 <06pleasingfungus> where going from 49% to 50% or w/e makes the spell like 4x stronger 21:24:20 <04dracoomega> ....probably the statlines aren't great from that, yeah 21:24:22 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> just need Even More HD Scaling Everywhere Forever 21:24:23 <09hellmonk> yeah it's kind of a pick your poison thing 21:24:35 <09hellmonk> either huge breakpoint or reset fights when near the wolf threshold 21:24:55 <04dracoomega> I admit, I've not touched summoning a lot since picking up the game again. I reserve my more confident design thoughts for stuff that I have 😛 21:25:14 <04dracoomega> (There's always So Many Things) 21:25:18 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> it has changed philosophy significantly. 21:25:25 <06pleasingfungus> think the solution is something like cactus giant 21:25:31 <04dracoomega> Cactus Dog 21:25:37 <04dracoomega> Problem solved 21:25:38 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> greater porcupine 21:25:48 <06pleasingfungus> which always summons one monster type but scales the monster str meaningfully with power 21:25:56 <04dracoomega> (Cactus giant is fun, though) 21:25:57 <09gammafunk> just don't refer to it as 'giant' 21:26:11 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> floating dog? 21:26:17 <06pleasingfungus> orange dog 21:26:23 <04dracoomega> (I had several djinn in a row that insisted on making me make use of it, and it felt pretty good) 21:26:49 <09hellmonk> cactus giant scaling is pretty funny 21:26:55 <09hellmonk> what if the hp got really big 21:27:09 <06pleasingfungus> it seemed relevant for a meatshield 21:27:14 <06pleasingfungus> and thorny friend 21:27:17 <04dracoomega> (In some ways, the 'random results' thing made more sense in the old days of 'spawn a rapid mixed distributon of these things', I guess) 21:27:21 <09hellmonk> yeah it's kind of cool for a summon where power matters a pretty good amount 21:27:33 <04dracoomega> Rather than having a single instance of anything where you really notice what you get or don't get 21:27:38 <06pleasingfungus> can use box of beasts tech for dog scaling so you get a faithful hound, etc at higher power 21:27:41 <06pleasingfungus> names 21:27:50 <09hellmonk> call mutant chimera familiar 21:27:54 <06pleasingfungus> to show how cool ur dog is 21:28:38 <04dracoomega> Mini-Hepliaklqana on a stick 21:28:56 <06pleasingfungus> ha 21:29:04 <06pleasingfungus> sorry, by names i meant adjectives 21:29:10 <06pleasingfungus> but i do like that idea 21:29:39 <04dracoomega> Also, now that I go copy-paste that name, I realize there are more consonants in the middle than I was ever actually pronouncing 21:30:07 <06pleasingfungus> crawl god names are truly magical 21:30:18 <04dracoomega> "There is a reason everyone just calls them Kiku" 21:30:23 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> ascending clear adjectives are very difficult to write out in a lot of cases without a linear path (ages for box of beasts) or hypercommon precedent (card rarities across all those games)... 21:30:34 <06pleasingfungus> sure 21:30:40 <06pleasingfungus> but you might only need a couple 21:30:45 <04dracoomega> But the apparently-incorrect Hepliaquana is perfectly pronouncible 😛 21:30:47 <06pleasingfungus> since max power isn't that high 21:31:11 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> * shrugs * 21:32:25 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (I feel kinda sad that summoning over time has drifted hard from actually summoning things within the dungeon, but that's an inevitable other reflective component of symmetry being awkward and dangerous to work with) 21:32:28 <09hellmonk> summon good/gooder/goodest boy 21:34:31 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (just gotta get working on my bailey-depth clashingelements randomallies conflux portal so cerulean imps appear somewhere) 21:34:52 <04dracoomega> I mean, Natasha does summon them, at least 21:35:03 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (except I was originally planning on ufetubi using shock instead for the air 5, pah) 21:35:21 <06pleasingfungus> oof, a tuber 21:36:28 <04dracoomega> (I have to admit, my first time casting Call Imp after so long away, I evidently cast it 4 times in a row before I realized that I wasn't in fact miscasting it the last 3 times it failed to produce a second imp >.>) 21:37:21 <09gammafunk> now that we have thoroughly capped summons we can we-introduce out-of-los summons (joke) 21:38:29 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> that's just giant spores 21:38:34 <04dracoomega> While I understand the design intent behind it, I do feel it's maybe a little bit of a shame at the lack of 'throw a bunch of fodder' at something that isn't super high level. Like, maybe with some interesting downside to keep that under control? 1 is so little for some things. 21:38:58 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> just shove summoner and necromancer under battlemage and give them 1 point of a weapon skill 21:39:10 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> so it can always be polearms 21:39:18 <04dracoomega> It's kinda funny. The ballisto needs to be in your LoS to spawn spores, but the spores can still blow up things out of it, because that's just what spores do 21:40:17 <06pleasingfungus> did you see canofworms' dispersal tech 21:40:49 <06pleasingfungus> apparently you can't tele other your summons without dismissing them... but you can disperse them 21:40:50 <09gammafunk> doubt I even thought of/was aware of los behavior of spores when I reworked fedhas. I assume it's some kind of conjured monster AI thing similar to ball lightnings 21:41:07 <04dracoomega> I mean, spores explode when they die or time out, too 21:41:10 <09gammafunk> All I did was lower the blast radius and I think tweak sporulation rate 21:41:13 <04dracoomega> So they don't need to be 'doing' something 21:41:39 <09gammafunk> don't they do the 1 dam melee plus die on melee trick? 21:41:46 <04dracoomega> Also: I didn't realize new Fedhas was your doing. I admit I have a soft spot for the days of fruit collection and making a needlessly large oklob battery in Zot:5, but new Fedhas still felt fun and good 21:42:15 <04dracoomega> I mean, they also explode when they hit something, but I'm pretty sure they eventually explode no matter what 21:42:47 <09gammafunk> yeah, glad you enjoyed. I still consider that design to be fairly incomplete, but honestly haven't had any ideas for how to improve it in the years since, and people seem to enjoy it ok enough 21:42:50 <04dracoomega> Though if I may give a minor thought on them, after playing a few runs with it 21:43:43 <09hellmonk> ball lightnings don't explode if they aren't in your los on timing out 21:43:54 <09hellmonk> so presumably spores are coded differently in some way 21:44:05 <09hellmonk> dispersal spores is really funny though 21:45:05 <04dracoomega> I wondered eventually if they should maybe get the Summon Briar ability at * instead of **. Lots of gods give a tangible benefit at *, including several initial activated abilities. Fedhas technically gives a passive on joining, but walking through neutral plants is a lot less valuable these days, I think, since there are so much less of them scattered around earlygame that it often felt that it didn't do very much until I had 21:45:06 plants of my own. And it felt like a longer-than-average waiting period to get something meaningful from the god 21:45:49 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> also less oklobs after so many lair vaults crept up on them 21:45:58 <04dracoomega> Even if this came with, say, a tiny bit reduced hp on the briars at low invocations or something, if it was felt it was needed 21:46:28 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (need to work on sewers getting sleepcaps and dart slugs, clearly) 21:46:53 <09gammafunk> I don't think I had any particular reason why ** instead of *. Could have been more due to hellmonk's suggested swap of fedhas' old abilities just prior to that merging 21:48:39 <09gammafunk> So sounds fine to me generally speaking. It is a rather powerful escape ability but probably not especially so at *. One invocation is very good for shutting down ranged monsters in most situations but you often need multiple to deal with nasty melee stuff 21:49:08 <04dracoomega> Yeah, it's quite good, but I am not sure it is distinctly better than several other things other gods can give at * 21:49:39 <04dracoomega> I do want to play more Fedhas. I always rather liked them, and while this is different, it's still fun 21:50:55 <09gammafunk> the design is mostly "here are some fun and powerful stationary allies to play with, so let's really make it so you can do that well. also you can bust into vaults" 21:51:20 <04dracoomega> (I... do wonder a little at ballistos seeming to have a noticeably longer duration than oklobs, but I don't know exactly whether this is particularly off or anything) 21:52:10 <09gammafunk> making player attacks always avoid harming allies is fun and very important, ebering worked a lot on that a bit after. But the god is fairly one note. Some gods can be simple like that, so maybe it's not an issue 21:52:11 <04dracoomega> I've actually used Overgrowth more to bust out of vaults, tbh 😛 21:52:21 <09gammafunk> valid as well! 21:53:06 <04dracoomega> "Help, I need things to hide behind and my feeble formicid jaws cannot handle Crypt's quality steel contruction." 21:53:23 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> clearly just need to bring back sun and rain with other targetting gimmicks 21:53:28 <09gammafunk> but things like busting into zot:5 to help trivialize the vault with a bunch of summons are still common. (can still make enough oklobs to take out most of the vault if you have good piety) 21:53:52 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> qud's portable wall but for temporary water... 21:53:53 <09hellmonk> i do miss drowning trj with rain tbh 21:53:56 <09gammafunk> I did try to imagine new fedhas abilities that weren't just summons, and overgrowth was as close as I got 21:54:02 <09gammafunk> (but it still makes summons) 21:54:36 <04dracoomega> I still remember, back in the old days, when I made such an oklob fort that I wanted to see how well it would fair against the post-orb pan invasion. And it evidently could basically just... keep going indefinitely. And after killing a ton of pan lords and getting bored with the idea, I eventually realized the terrible flaw in my plan 21:54:50 <04dracoomega> Almost the entire rest of the floor outside the vault had filled up with spawns 21:54:57 <04dracoomega> That had gotten blocked by the water 21:54:58 <09gammafunk> playing with terrain is a fun notion in general, and it probably has a far better chance of working when gated by god piety, although fedha's sunlight is perhaps a counterexample 21:55:11 <04dracoomega> And it had become nearly impossible to leave the vault again 21:55:30 <09gammafunk> nice 21:55:35 <09hellmonk> well sunlight didn't "work" because it had no piety cost 21:56:14 <09hellmonk> rain was good and mostly fine other than the way you cheese stuff with deep water tends to be kind of boring 21:58:09 <09gammafunk> rain was "fine" but felt like it just didn't quite work to me. Blocking off monsters is I guess really tricky to do right. If you are very direct about it, probably gets OP and tedious fast 21:58:32 <09gammafunk> and yeah good point about sunlight not having piety, assumed it had a minimal cost 22:00:04 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (17 years of crawl and I'm surprised that out of all the various gimmicks tried out, there's still only 3 liquids) 22:00:16 <09gammafunk> well.... 22:00:27 <09gammafunk> we have "recently" made more liquids 22:00:36 <09gammafunk> bogs from eringya's 22:01:03 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> liquids that spawn naturally or vault-wise, should I say 22:01:04 <09gammafunk> also I guess ledas' mud counts as a fourth? 22:01:21 <09gammafunk> oh yeah we're too afraid to try using them outside of the spells 22:01:30 <09gammafunk> we did add a new type of tree at least 22:01:33 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> poor grunt's chei's leda's statues 22:02:11 <04dracoomega> The fun thing is that if a cool terrain type occurs naturally, then it can also be part of a spell! 22:02:41 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (the extremely binary nature of flight over them is probably the big thing for why there's not much else done with them, except that's not actually required for doing more) 22:03:33 <04dracoomega> Well, 'terrain' doesn't have to just be something under your feet 22:03:58 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> stalactites 22:04:12 <04dracoomega> Crawl has ceilings of very ambiguous height 22:04:35 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> tall enough for a dragon, small enough that a dragon can't fly over a rat 22:05:11 <04dracoomega> What is that Sourceless Malevolence is just the ceiling falling on you? 22:05:17 <04dracoomega> And no one ever thinks to look up 22:05:40 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> the teleports are just barnacles grabbing and throwing the player elsewhere 22:05:46 <09gammafunk> > # sprint_mu > An open sea? > > Though it exists in stark defiance of every conventional rule of physics and > geometry you know to be true, there can be no denying that here, in this tiny > room, is a vast and terrible sea of impossible size. 22:06:03 <09gammafunk> good markdown interpretation, discord 22:07:11 <09gammafunk> wonderful that mu was compelled to write a custom sprint description for this, one of the most obscure types of "wall" 22:07:30 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> edge of existence....... 22:07:50 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> oh, sorry, the dimension's edge 22:07:54 <04dracoomega> Even time in Crawl is ambiguous 22:08:20 <04dracoomega> Back in the days of scarfing down corpses, either everyone has a ludicrous metabolism or fights verrrrrrrrry verrrrrrrrrry slooooooooowly 22:08:37 <04dracoomega> Epic Seven Day Battle against a rat 22:09:03 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> everything's based on damage rolls because the player and enemies are actually rolling their dice and then calculating it against their targets stats 22:09:11 <04dracoomega> Pffff 22:10:30 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (would walking under some permanent magic stalactites or magic ceiling lights or whatever be too close to just permanent clouds, I wonder? at least they'd be a different glyph so there'd be less torturing of console players.) 22:12:54 <04dracoomega> I mean, one can conceive of various magical terrain or floor types that would still logically affect you whether you were touching them or merely floating above them 22:19:39 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> conveyor belts too deep in too tight underground to fly over carrying sewer sludge, sparking vents, regeneration tanks, teleporting cloister bells, explosive reactors, recycling machines, tar barrels, walking walls, anti-scroll runes, anti-herb runes, sentinel-activating-to-move runes, trash cans that explode into empty soda cans and banana peels... 22:20:46 <06pleasingfungus> r-i: few liquid types aren’t because of flight, they’re because the ease of luring in crawl makes it too easy for players to leave areas that disadvantage them and to pull enemies into areas that benefit the player. imo 22:21:05 <06pleasingfungus> that’s why i’ve never added more terrain despite daydreaming many types, anyway 22:21:22 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> just need another context for teleporters besides gauntlets and ghosts, right 22:21:40 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (or more equivalents to water nymphs.) 22:22:18 <04dracoomega> It's a fair point, and I've sometimes felt that one of the main ways to get players to actually interact with bad terrain is to scatter it so thoroughly in some place that they don't really have a choice. Not like 'a pond of bad stuff over here', but entire areas that alternate good and bad stuff constantly. I mean, this is how water is used in quite a few places already, really. 22:22:30 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> and yet we lost deep water in 90% of swamp :P 22:22:48 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (...and kept water in spider????) 22:22:49 <06pleasingfungus> to differentiate from shoals! 22:22:50 <04dracoomega> I mean, shallow water is still something you don't want to be in or move through without flight, but you don't really get that option 22:23:00 <04dracoomega> Because there's just too much of it everywhere 22:23:10 <04dracoomega> You can try to minimize its impact, but you can't just leave and ignore it 22:23:18 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (why are there still spider rune vaults with shallow water after clinging was cut) 22:23:30 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (to annoy every normal spawn but boost moths and hornets?) 22:23:49 <04dracoomega> (Games that focus on lots of arena-style fights and locked areas have an easier time with using such terrain in localized ways, I think, since the dev can pick the location for a fight instead of (somewhat) the player) 22:24:07 <06pleasingfungus> yeah, eg hoplite 22:24:21 <06pleasingfungus> or into the breach 22:24:38 <08wormsofcan> gauntlet sprint when... 22:24:40 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> 90% of roguelike hybrids becoming discrete gauntlets with no traps even after Hades sure is disappointing 22:24:44 <04dracoomega> In Into the Breach, wanting to take the fight to somewhere else is calling forfeiting 😛 22:25:16 <04dracoomega> I mean, I think there's strengths and weaknesses to each approach 22:25:29 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> need less sprints based on portals and more portals based on sprints 22:25:31 <04dracoomega> There's a lot to be said for curated arenas where you can't just pull things away or meaningfully kite 22:25:44 <04dracoomega> Even if a continuity of space allows other interesting options as well 22:26:28 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> have some wizlab-depth [abyss + temple + forest] portal plans essentially using arena spawns... 22:30:55 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> deeply amusing to see my gf come back to crawl and seeing discord reaction praise practically hanging off her every word 22:35:39 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-473-g61b50ae490 (34) 22:46:11 <04dracoomega> Probably too late in the evening for me now to actually start going over Things I'd Like To Stab At in any detail, alas 22:47:26 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> I could leave another one of My Lists of Like Thirty Things I'd Totally Do If I Was Working Here that'll be... two months? three? :P 22:47:35 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> before I bother at all 22:48:41 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (unfortunately things like seriously revitalize all three early portals and then add two more aren't of much use to others) 22:52:19 <04dracoomega> But I suppose a brief overview would be like: -I think Hexslinger doesn't really functionally succeed at what it seems it's trying to do and I'd like to try to improve on that -Earth Elementalist feels like it's in a rather sad/boring place since LRD was cut, and while I can agree with the general trend of pulling later-game tools out of books, I feel what it's been left with is not great. I don't even mean 'too weak', but from a 22:52:20 'feels good and interesting to use' perspective. I do have some ideas for both of these, even if they need a bit more fleshing out in actual game. -Yred feels like there are some fundamental problems with the current resource system that could use addressing. -Dith was always a rather troubled/underwhelming god, imo (...there was a problem with melee shadow mimic that I noticed in 0.14 that apparently was never changed >.>) and has maybe only gotten 22:52:20 moreso. I am not sure what it needs precisely, but I think some overall pass on it. ??What is going to happen with Transmuations? An old queston that has only gotten more relevant now that Shapeshifting exists 22:52:44 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (yred, kiku, and necromancer are probably all intertwined in a certain core deliberate weakness to everything besides yred's random zombies being temporary now, making pure necromancy unimpressive at actually getting the ball rolling and at the mercy of early drops giving any other direction please) 22:53:06 <04dracoomega> I haven't played modern necromancer to have any concrete opinions on that yet 22:55:28 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> without a major rework I suspect the transmutations answers are either absorb into poison and continue to emphasize poison's identity of stopping dead or make everything pure [the other school], throw weresblood into necromancy because it fits the mechanical identity of having the same problems, and probably cut or nerf irradiate and yara's 22:56:12 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (with a major rework it's clearly going to take her, like, three months to figure out New Stalker or something) 22:56:24 <04dracoomega> Haha 22:58:05 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-473-g61b50ae490 22:58:58 <09gammafunk> I have an ambitious plan for Dith that I'm working on, and others have also talked about less severe tweaks. My design could work for another god entirely once I finish the details. Alas also too late for me to discuss much at the moment. Also generally agree on the rest of your list; slightly surprised to hear EE singled out but earth was the school we had the least new ideas for under ebering's "positional magic" reform, and we 22:58:59 left it mostly as "the school of a bunch of single target damage plus some stranger forms of AOE". Elliptic has reminded us that it's good to have simple spells, and a lot of the new spells added lean towards complexity, so perhaps in a sense it's good for earth to be more 'boring', but I think most would agree that earth magic needs some kind of attention. 22:59:41 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> is it entirely so complex to be so heavily reliant on two dozen autotargetting gimmicks? 23:00:36 <09gammafunk> leaning towards complexity was referring exactly to said gimmicks, not to earth magic 23:01:00 <04dracoomega> I mean, I can agree to some extent that a range of complexities is good, but I think you can do some interesting things without being too complex. (Though who knows how some of this stuff would be seen) 23:01:08 <09gammafunk> although earth magic has finally started to see some major tweaks, the new spells have largely been non-earth (in terms of positional magic) 23:01:17 <09gammafunk> bvc predates said project 23:01:38 <09gammafunk> yeah, definitely 23:04:44 <04dracoomega> Also: I mention EE in particular since the starter book feels... well, petrify feels very awkwardly placed without LRD to accompany it now. I don't know how realistic anyone is going to use it to stab anything as an EE start, since that's clearly not how you got to the point of being able to cast a level 4 double-school spell. Petrifying something so you can stone arrow it more is questionable - with all the bonus AC (and maybe 23:04:45 rounds of trying to get the hex to land) you'd likely have been better off just casting more stone arrows. Sure, it can sometimes stun a threat long enough to run away, but I think the real thing it was doing in that book is letting you LRD a specific target, maybe even when there were no walls around to use. And now you don't have LRD and may never get LRD either. Otherwise, you have a basically-vanilla single-target spell and another vanilla 23:04:45 single-target spell that's a bit better and... and has passwall ever been exciting, I wonder? 23:05:00 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> more fun and much less good than swiftness for escaping! 23:05:10 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> also again, clearly just need New Stalker 23:05:50 <04dracoomega> Though: If you have an ambitious Dith already, I want to be clear that I don't. It was on the list of things I felt needed something that I wanted to put my brain to, but didn't have nearly the focused thought put into it specifically yet 23:06:24 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (more tangible other priorities anyway, like revising escape decks) 23:08:27 <04dracoomega> (I have always been kind of annoyed that the melee shadow mimic barely feels like it functions properly, if you look at the math of it, since it just gives your weapon to a fake monster with base damage of 0, that never scales. Unlike, say, ranged combat, where it always did scale properly and was dramatically stronger. Always kind of felt effectively like a bug to me) 23:08:55 <04dracoomega> And these days there's supposedly a lot less things that even properly trigger spell mimic 23:09:11 <04dracoomega> (I don't feel umbra ever did nearly enough for stealth to promote Dith really being a stabbing god) 23:10:09 <11⸸※ of starspawned spite> (gotta love illusion card and ghosts and etc etc being unable to cast anything from FE / Wr / Re besides blink and a non-functional portal projectile) 23:10:17 <04dracoomega> A separate problem, yeah 23:38:00 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.31-a0-473-g61b50ae490 (34) 23:55:11 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-473-g61b50ae490