00:39:25 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4907-g988a294422 02:37:33 <05kate> i don't feel super strongly about it but if a "sky weapon" is "thing you wield in your weapon slot for passive bonuses and never intend to actually hit enemies with", that's also not far off what enhancer staves are currently, so doesn't feel like a major change there. i'm also not really convinced that wielding a sky weapon would be ~optimal~ compared to picking up a good weapon and using it sometimes 02:38:34 <05kate> but certainly the unrand staves that don't even have the excuse of enhancer staff melee being an option should be orbs instead, imo 03:22:45 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4907-g988a294422 05:19:31 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-1016-gfb0d676 (34) 05:31:05 <06advil> maybe some of this discussion was mixing up WPN_STAFF (which are already OBJ_WEAPON) and OBJ_STAVES? 05:31:15 <06advil> I could imagine getting rid of either, for somewhat different reasons 05:32:11 <06advil> I thought kate was originally talking about unrand staffs, which are all weapons of type WPN_STAFF, which is otherwise unused 06:06:48 <06advil> sure, restarted 06:10:47 <06advil> oops wrong channel 06:13:55 testing 06:14:08 <06advil> ok, I think I also just fixed that bot 06:14:25 <06advil> it was pointed at the wrong place, maybe someone tidied up the logs and didn't add a redirect 06:23:18 <12ZureaL> I didn't tidy up any logs. My bot might have just been a mess from when I converted it over from JS? 🙂 06:24:34 <06advil> I think it used to work? it was just a matter of the bot looking in ~crawl-dev, and the other scripts writing to a log in ~crawl-dev/logs/ 06:53:59 <06advil> oh, I bet it's that it has the right path for the instance of the bot running on lunarnet 06:54:20 <06advil> so maybe it did never work (for logging server announcements at least) on libera 07:56:05 <10PleasingFungus> kate: staves are more interesting than interesting than sky weapons in a few ways. most notable is that they’re specific to a school (rip staff of power/energy), which means you’re excited when you find one that matches your current spells, and you might have a little nudge toward another school if you find an early staff of a different type. They’re also more common than sky items (i think?), which means ‘casters’ 07:56:06 spend more of the game with a meaningful item in their hand 07:59:46 <10PleasingFungus> advil: my thought was getting rid of obj in favor of wpn, but also not sure how core refactoring is to this discussion 08:00:04 <10PleasingFungus> does look like kate is more focused on design (reasonably!) 08:07:58 <05kate> i think enhancer staves would still fill that purpose of maybe pushing you to try a certain school/being excited when you find one that matches your spells as off-hand items, i think there's design potential there and that it would be mostly correct to then use an actual weapon in your main hand. but yeah, my main thought was just wanting to get rid of the unrand staves (especially those where you really can't use them as a melee weapon 08:07:59 even if you wanted to), in the same vein as the dispater staff -> orb change 08:10:31 <05kate> possibly just wucad mu and staff of battle becoming orbs, and maybe majin-bo could get a custom base type to make it a bit of a better weapon (demon staff!) 08:11:39 <05kate> and ??? for the sceptre of asmodeus 08:37:46 <10PleasingFungus> olgreb? 08:37:59 <09hellmonk> Olgreb has a actual real damage brand on it 08:38:10 <05kate> olgreb technically is a staff of poison plus other stuff, yeah 08:38:11 <10PleasingFungus> ??staff of olgreb 08:38:12 <04Cerebot> staff of olgreb[1/2]: A {staff of poison} that deals {poison arrow} damage in melee instead of pure poison. This means it's only 70% resistable and it poisons even poison-resistant natural monsters. Can be evoked for 4mp to cast {Toxic Radiance}, based on evocations skill, with spellpower 5 * evocations + 5. A player or monster wielding this will have poison immunity. 08:38:16 <10PleasingFungus> huh 08:38:27 <09hellmonk> it got changed with staff damage rework 08:38:46 <05kate> i think i've reworked staff of olgreb's damage like, 3 different times 08:39:06 <09hellmonk> Make olgreb an orb that makes all poison sources do p arrow dmg 08:39:13 <09hellmonk> the poison build 08:40:28 <10PleasingFungus> kate: the unrand changes you propose sound fine to me! i guess my feeling is more about normal staves - that ‘casters’ mostly don’t care about “actual weapons”, and their primary hand might as well be empty much of the time if we make staves into off-hand items. but who can say 08:40:29 <05kate> currently staff of olgreb does the beautiful thing of duplicating all the staff damage code again in art-func.h 08:40:48 <10PleasingFungus> wunderbar 08:42:40 <05kate> i do think you're right that people often play ~casters~ as if they can't hit things in melee, i just think they're usually wrong to do that, heh 08:43:36 <05kate> but yeah, will poke at the unrands a bit maybe! also majin-bo being a demon staff got me thinking of how we'd fill out all the weapon schools and have a demon dagger 08:43:43 <09hellmonk> Need more brands that work like pain 08:43:44 <05kate> a devil dagger if you will... 08:46:23 <08nicolae> some kind of sacrificial ritual dagger is a theme i don't think we've done for unrands before 08:47:12 <08nicolae> what if staves didn't need evocations for bonk damage, just the spell school? 08:47:37 <10PleasingFungus> sounds like athame we could use 🙂 08:49:45 <08nicolae> i appreciate this pun even though technically "athame" is three syllables 08:50:01 <10PleasingFungus> kate: would we also have a sacred shiv? seems un-good… 08:50:12 <10PleasingFungus> thanks! i worked hard on it 08:51:21 <08nicolae> look, sometimes the agents of good gotta get a guy between the ribs sneaky style 08:52:52 <09hellmonk> Elyvilons butter knife 08:53:18 <10PleasingFungus> i still want to have another ‘good’ ego that’s less boring than holy wrath or silver or disruption. probably something ely/healing related - the ‘good’ version of vamp, whatever that would mean 08:56:38 <08nicolae> does less damage but you get more healing than equivalent from vamp? 08:56:55 <10PleasingFungus> ehhhh 08:57:05 <10PleasingFungus> think i’d want something more distinct 08:57:30 <08nicolae> pacify on bonk 08:57:36 <05kate> mostly i was just trying to figure out how to mechanically reference the Perfect Videogame in crawl somehow: https://store.steampowered.com/app/422970/Devil_Daggers/ 08:57:43 <10PleasingFungus> sorry ya i did get the ref 08:57:55 <10PleasingFungus> i was just going off on my own train of thought 08:57:57 <05kate> aha! 08:58:06 <10PleasingFungus> (choo choo) 08:59:27 <08nicolae> cleansing: if you do enough damage with it, i'll cure some problem you have (drain, badmut, -slow, etc.) 08:59:47 <08nicolae> well, better make that "if you get a kill with it" 09:00:36 <10PleasingFungus> interesting 09:01:30 <10PleasingFungus> not sure crawl has enough debuffs for that to be an ego, but it feels like it could be something 09:01:50 <10PleasingFungus> some time ago, i had a notion of an unrand that halved debuff durations 09:02:09 <08nicolae> the effect improves with the amount of damage dealt/taken on the kill, so if you use it on little chaff guys you're not getting much better effects than "a coupla HP" but if you stab a tier-2 demon or cleave a bunch of guys in the face you get "a lot of HP and you can read scrolls when threatened again" 09:02:32 <10PleasingFungus> oh, hp and debuffs 09:02:35 <10PleasingFungus> complex 09:03:11 <08nicolae> maybe, HP seemed like a simple enough effect to fill in at the low-level effects or where you don't have debuffs 09:03:18 <08nicolae> maybe good-god-themed buffs on hit? 09:03:42 <08nicolae> but yeah, no sense in going too nuts with it 09:04:17 <08nicolae> zin themed brand. get a kill with it and monsters who see the righteous triumphing over evil have a chance to flee or turn into salt 09:07:01 <08nicolae> good vamp: it's just vamp but it's more effective on things that are resistant to vamp 09:07:29 <08nicolae> inverse vamp 09:07:30 <08nicolae> pmav 09:08:16 <08nicolae> game design is hard. who knew?! 09:14:48 <08nicolae> this is why i mostly do vaults. just to double check: it's okay to put the orb of zot in a shop if i put an obsidian statue on the same tile as the shop, c/d? 09:19:46 <06advil> D:2 orb of zot shop that always asks for one more gold than you have 09:24:05 <06advil> that actually sounds like a plausible apr 1 idea, too bad it's 360 days away 09:40:12 <08wormsofcan> then someone will figure out how to buy it anyway 10:20:24 <06advil> gotta remember to test entering the shop under wjc lash, etc 13:19:52 Real orb of zot is replaced by a coupon for the shop that activates normal Orb stuff but also makes the shop now sell the orb for exactly as much gold you have 13:24:18 Ironically that ends up making the game harder considering you might have to take extra steps to buy the real orb on your orb run 15:24:01 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-1016-gfb0d676c02 (34) 20:52:43 fallknight (L17 DrTm) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Elf:2) 20:52:43 tormodpwns (L4 OpHu) Crash caused by signal #15: Terminated (D:2) 20:52:47 m00se (L6 DrCj) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:5) 20:56:14 KaiHerd (L9 MiFi) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:8) 20:56:41 patricia (L8 GnHs) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:6) 20:56:41 tormodpwns (L2 OpHu) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:2) 20:56:43 roguelemental (L1 DEHs) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D:1) 20:58:10 japicx (L14 HOCA) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Lair:5) 20:58:10 cashto (L9 OpDe) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:7) 20:58:14 <10PleasingFungus> hm 20:58:16 Siradein (L17 MeCj) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:13) 20:58:22 judgestillwater (L6 MiBe) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:4) 20:58:29 wrentha (L27 VSAs) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 226: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Dis:2) 20:58:35 Nostradumbass (L3 GrFi) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:4) 21:02:28 koze (L15 GrEE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Gauntlet) 21:02:29 Railbird80 (L16 HuFE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Lair:2) 21:02:29 hackti (L1 GrEE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:1) 21:02:29 <10PleasingFungus> hmmm 21:03:48 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 21:03:48 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 22:05:12 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-1017-ge495a94dc4: New monster: cerulean imp 10(31 minutes ago, 7 files, 27+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e495a94dc49c 22:05:12 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-1018-g25214051b3: Rework Call Imp 10(7 minutes ago, 5 files, 9+ 39-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/25214051b307 22:21:56 coined (L15 GrGl) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:12) 22:21:56 hackti (L12 GrEE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:12) 22:22:19 tormodpwns (L16 OpHu) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 234: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Spider:2) 22:34:57 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-1018-g25214051b3 (34) 22:41:54 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-1018-g25214051b3 (34) 22:56:58 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-1018-g25214051b3 23:50:45 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-1018-g25214051b3 (34) 23:54:22 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-1018-g25214051b3