00:20:19 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-847-g17996783a1 (34) 00:54:22 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-847-g17996783a1 01:37:52 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4884-gcf1f1e11f7 04:23:10 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4884-gcf1f1e11f7 05:09:36 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-847-g1799678 (34) 05:49:58 <06advil> ??subtractor snake 05:49:59 <04Cerebot> subtractor snake[1/1]: Zot-exclusive snake that resembled a speed 18 lower-hp klown without blinking. Added in 0.10, and subtracted in 0.11. 05:51:31 <06advil> ??summon corner 05:51:31 <04Cerebot> summon corner[1/1]: L5 Summ/Tmut spell that changes the dungeon around you to create a corner in the direction you specify. 08:04:07 <10PleasingFungus> if someone wants a free commit, there’s a missing break after the af bloodzerk case in melee attack.cc 08:16:30 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-848-g34551f5589: Break AF_BLODOZERK (Beargit) 10(68 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/34551f5589ac 08:30:29 <08nicolae> subtract 08:31:47 clearly time to rewrite in rust 🙂 08:37:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-848-g34551f5589 (34) 08:41:35 <10PleasingFungus> sounds like a crate idea! 08:46:47 <10PleasingFungus> hm, that commit should have actually read fix: break bloodzerk 08:47:08 <10PleasingFungus> (joke) time to force push a new message 09:42:13 <05kate> choose a random number on the HUD to subtract something from (HP/MP, str/int/dex, AC/EV/SH, gold, quiver count, XL, branch depth, turncount) 09:43:15 <10PleasingFungus> sick speedrun strats… 09:43:29 <05kate> high risk, high reward... 10:23:33 <13Sastreii> actually flying z-skyshark and nightmare sheep, better known as zombie dream sheep 10:23:33 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081265616532553850/Schermata_2023-03-03_alle_18.19.16.png 10:23:33 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081265616947781693/zombie_dream_sheep.png 10:23:34 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081265617350438962/zombie_skyshark.png 10:24:20 <13Sastreii> the orb has to wait again 10:24:21 <10PleasingFungus> wow 10:24:25 <10PleasingFungus> sick 10:24:43 <10PleasingFungus> these are nuts 10:24:46 <10PleasingFungus> tyty! 10:27:57 <13Sastreii> :content: 10:29:30 <09gammafunk> man, that's awesome, makes me feel bad that zombie dream sheep are such a useless monster 10:29:34 <09gammafunk> *??dream sheep zombie 10:29:34 <04Cerebot> dream sheep zombie (Z) | Spd: 8 | HD: 9 | HP: 64-89 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 10 | undead, evil, unbreathing | Res: will(12), cold++, poison+++, drown, miasma, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy | XP: 125 | Sz: Medium | Int: brainless. 10:30:11 <09gammafunk> would be amazing for some kind of undead animal 10:34:12 <13Sastreii> at least now they have their own tile and don't transform into zombie bears in death! 10:49:33 <09gammafunk> oh, is that what we use. I'd have guessed we use zombie yak tiles 10:51:38 <13Sastreii> IIRC is the generic big quadrupedal zombie, which is the old tile of the polar bear 10:59:55 <10PleasingFungus> new tiles 10:59:56 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081274775030206464/image.png 11:00:05 <10PleasingFungus> (dream sheep top, skysharks bottom) 11:00:08 <10PleasingFungus> (orc for scale) 11:01:23 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-849-g744a1ced0f: Remove giant fish zombies (Sastreii) 10(68 seconds ago, 4 files, 11+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/744a1ced0fd4 11:08:34 <09gammafunk> you're too focused on the trivial dream sheep and skyshark zombies, those red outlined spectrals are what's going to kill you 11:11:46 <10PleasingFungus> i am very often focused on the trivial 11:21:44 <06advil> I feel like we now need to come up with an effect that uses the crawling skyshark tiles 11:31:01 <10PleasingFungus> right, i should put them in the gastronaut box 11:33:00 BVC applied to a skyshark? /s 11:34:25 (also, still waiting for flying whales so I can dig out an appropriate Gojira lyric 🙂 11:36:58 <10PleasingFungus> hellmonk is threatening big fish and i'm still thinking about jelly fish 11:37:16 <10PleasingFungus> whales are probably lower on the list than those, unless someone comes up with a funny idea 11:39:37 <09hellmonk> 2 tile monster 11:41:07 <09gammafunk> if we get enough of this aquatic stuff, I can finally make an ecco the dolphin tribute vault 11:42:31 <10PleasingFungus> thank g*d 11:43:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-849-g744a1ced0f (34) 12:13:47 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-850-g320358a0d7: Allow cleaving insane monsters 10(81 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/320358a0d739 12:13:47 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-851-gbd0d260d8e: Add a crawling zombie skyshark tile (Sastreii) 10(59 seconds ago, 2 files, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd0d260d8e55 12:44:36 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-851-gbd0d260d8e (34) 15:16:24 New branch created: polk-and-pierce (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/polk-and-pierce 15:16:24 03PleasingFungus02 07[polk-and-pierce] * 0.30-a0-852-gb2ad412475: Experiment: rework reaching 10(3 hours ago, 9 files, 161+ 36-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b2ad41247537 15:30:20 <05kate> hmm, very much in favour of removing targetable reaching but i wonder if having it work that way would end up being very fiddly in a different way. seems like there'd be a lot of cases where you'd want to move to a square but can't, at least 15:31:14 <05kate> i feel like the ideal would be to have you just still move and get a free attack in the process but rampage sort of already stole that 15:32:46 <10PleasingFungus> i'd like to experiment! certainly you can imagine cases where this blocks you from a desired move, but it's very unclear to me how common those are 15:32:58 <10PleasingFungus> especially how common they are compared to the current need for targeted reaching 15:33:03 <09hellmonk> Good candidate for an experimental probably 15:33:05 <10PleasingFungus> sure 15:35:32 <10PleasingFungus> i did actually think about move + attack, but i'm not sure that it really supports any sort of reaching playstyle - doesn't really synergize with allies, for example 15:35:44 <05kate> i feel like it might be a more visible fiddliness, in that with targeted reaching it's ~optimal~ to use it a lot but you can just not bother and still be fine (although obviously that's still a design problem), whereas here there'd be fewer cases where it comes up but they'd be a lot more noticeable. definitely seems like the kind of thing that'd be good for an experimental though yeah 15:40:33 <10PleasingFungus> > i feel like it might be a more visible fiddliness... could be, yeah! i should ping gammafunk 15:40:39 <10PleasingFungus> @gammafunk hey, want to host an experimental 15:40:46 <10PleasingFungus> wait actually i'm not ready yet 15:40:48 <10PleasingFungus> unping 15:45:03 <05kate> mostly i think it's just very hard to come up with weapon moves that actually do fit all the design goals of being distinct but not too intrusive, working with autofight, etc. got there with cleaving in 0.12 and it sure has been 10 years since then, heh 15:45:09 <10PleasingFungus> strong agree 15:45:23 <10PleasingFungus> i spent a very long time trying to think of good riposte replacements, gimmick for m&f, etc 15:47:54 <10PleasingFungus> btw, very tangentially, but remember how many weird details original cleaving had? like, it swept an arc around you and stopped at walls and could only hit at most some number of adjacent enemies 15:48:19 <10PleasingFungus> it wouldn't hit the guy 'behind' you (relative to your target) unless there was a wall on one side of the target, in which case it could...? 15:48:43 <05kate> haha yeah, absolutely. i think at the time it was partly because there were lots of arguments that it was going to be absurdly overpowered if it just hit everything 15:49:15 <10PleasingFungus> yes! 15:49:25 <10PleasingFungus> but there was also some kind of verisimillitude thing going on 15:49:34 <10PleasingFungus> like how can you hit a guy with an axe if you'd bump into a door en route 15:49:49 <05kate> heh yeah 15:57:28 <09gammafunk> notably, elliptic seemed a bit disappointed by the change. This was of course many years ago, but he seemed disappointed by a decrease in tactical thinking 15:58:06 <10PleasingFungus> ya i remember debating it with him at the time 15:58:09 <10PleasingFungus> long time ago ofc 16:06:01 <09gammafunk> re: new reaching, what will the result be of an explicit movement key (i.e. not tab, but a direction key) to an unoccupied square where the movement is in a direction with a viable reach target. A movement, or will that perform an attack? 16:06:53 <10PleasingFungus> attack 16:06:53 <09gammafunk> like @.1 and you move to the right 16:07:31 <09gammafunk> Are you going for a reach that explicitly doesn't allow the player to simply move and not attack? like you want that as a drawback? 16:07:51 <09gammafunk> obviously such situations generally want an attack, but in some cases you're "running away" or choosing better terrain 16:07:54 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t care either way 16:08:23 <10PleasingFungus> might be better if it didn’t prevent movement 16:08:30 <10PleasingFungus> insofar as w- exists 16:09:02 <10PleasingFungus> but it’s tricky to square that with not needing to mess around with v targets 16:09:33 <09gammafunk> yeah, well that and you could have a reasonable UI if you required the player to either use tab (i.e. autofight always prefers to attack if possible) or v (and where v doesn't have an intermediate UI step, I guess) 16:09:45 <09gammafunk> like v would just attack and your movement key would just move 16:09:56 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t know what that means 16:10:09 <10PleasingFungus> what does it mean to have no intermediate ui step 16:10:37 <09gammafunk> well, I assume if you hit v with a situations like @.1 (1 is monster), it shows you a targeter first? 16:11:09 <09gammafunk> based on what I'v read of your branch desc, was thinking that v would simply attack at reach immediately 16:11:26 <10PleasingFungus> what happens if there are enemies in reach range in different directions? 16:11:34 <10PleasingFungus> eg one left and one up 16:12:02 <10PleasingFungus> right now, in the branch, you can push left or up to reach attack as appropriate 16:12:08 <10PleasingFungus> very simple 16:12:22 <09gammafunk> true, v can't work that way 16:13:05 <09gammafunk> I guess it feels like a bad design to prevent movement and it would be ideal if that could be handled by some kind of override, but shift/ctrl+move already have their own meanings 16:13:46 <10PleasingFungus> my line of thought has been moving in the same direction 16:14:12 <09gammafunk> I see what you did there 16:14:59 <10PleasingFungus> oh 16:15:07 <10PleasingFungus> unintended 16:15:08 <05kate> having movement still move you and ctrl+dir reach in the chosen direction (currently it just attacks the adjacent tile like a non-reaching weapon) would be an option i guess but then that doesn't help in the majority of cases where you do want to just attack instead of moving 16:15:15 <10PleasingFungus> yes 16:15:48 <10PleasingFungus> also that force attack behavior is something folks would also miss 16:16:14 <10PleasingFungus> if eg you want to betray a charmed guy or attack a possible invis guy w/o moving 16:17:10 <10PleasingFungus> latter obviated by hellmo branch ofc 🙂 16:23:46 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-851-gbd0d260d8e (34) 16:27:31 <10PleasingFungus> user MIC132 suggested an ability that lets you temporarily toggle off reaching. it’s awkward, but i’m warming to it slightly 16:27:55 <10PleasingFungus> feel like you wouldn’t want it to ‘shut off until re-enabled’ 16:28:08 invert v? 16:28:11 <10PleasingFungus> maybe disable for one move? formicid digging feels comparable 16:29:42 <10PleasingFungus> yeah a few people have suggested making v move 16:29:46 <05kate> my instinctive reaction to "add a toggle" is to be extremely against it, feels like a sign of a problematic design, but i guess it's possibly an improvement over current reaching still 16:29:53 <09gammafunk> the toggle autoreach key, now bound to @ once we've merged hellmonk's branch 16:30:00 <09gammafunk> oh wait 16:30:05 <09gammafunk> we can't actually remove that toggle can we 16:30:18 <10PleasingFungus> do you mean bound to *a? 16:30:31 <09gammafunk> ah yes 16:30:42 <09gammafunk> I mean autopickup toggle 16:30:53 <10PleasingFungus> i worry that inverted v would be too surprising and too hard to discover. also makes it hard to see what each direction will hit, if you’re testing 16:31:05 <10PleasingFungus> kate: yes i had the exact same reaction re toggle 16:31:33 <10PleasingFungus> i was following the line of thought ‘what if we had an ability that just took a step’ 16:31:35 <05kate> i can't imagine ever being in favour of a new weapon move for lbl/maces coming with a toggle ability though. purely a "i guess this is less bad" solution 16:31:51 <10PleasingFungus> so you hit like ‘a h left’ or something and then you move without reaching 16:32:12 <10PleasingFungus> and that’s the same keystrokes as a hypothetical toggle 16:35:59 <05kate> it seems very comparable to there just being a whole new set of movement keybinds for "move without reaching" which like, again i really dislike the idea of but maybe it's a lesser evil 16:36:12 <10PleasingFungus> yeah maybe. 16:36:44 <10PleasingFungus> what would hypothetical alt keybinds even be? we’ve used ctrl and shift 16:37:12 <05kate> windows key + move 16:37:35 <05kate> no mac users allowed 16:37:41 <10PleasingFungus> noo 16:38:21 <10PleasingFungus> more like ⌘ + move!!! 16:51:21 <10PleasingFungus> also very undecided on compensatory buffs. even if we re-add the ability to move freely, it feels like a significant enough nerf that there should be some kind of buff to polearms to compensate, but not a very large one... 17:00:19 <08nlavsky> tfw you haven't read today's discussion and the first thing you see on the channel is PF's "even if we re-add the ability to move freely" 👀 17:10:42 <10PleasingFungus> lol 17:12:08 <08nlavsky> this new reaching sounds like something interesting, though 17:13:01 <08nlavsky> are you gonna have an experimental branch for it? 17:13:15 <10PleasingFungus> that's the plan yeah 17:26:31 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-852-g08b95dd62f: Remove ABIL_MAX_EVOKE 10(75 seconds ago, 2 files, 4+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/08b95dd62f55 17:49:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[polk-and-pierce] * 0.30-a0-853-g214f356e7e: Experiment: rework reaching 10(5 hours ago, 9 files, 161+ 36-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/214f356e7ee7 17:49:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[polk-and-pierce] * 0.30-a0-854-g9819d3e235: Remove 'failure to reach' 10(34 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9819d3e235c1 17:49:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[polk-and-pierce] * 0.30-a0-855-g8c3c24483d: Re-enable movement (MIC132, acrobat, others) 10(7 minutes ago, 5 files, 38+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8c3c24483d97 17:49:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[polk-and-pierce] * 0.30-a0-856-g179b50eadb: Update some descriptions 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/179b50eadb51 17:49:36 <10PleasingFungus> @gammafunk ok, i think this is probably ok enough for an experimental 17:49:42 <10PleasingFungus> no rush, whenever you have time 18:11:40 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-852-g08b95dd62f (34) 18:44:54 <10PleasingFungus> hm 18:44:59 <10PleasingFungus> my game on cko seems to be hosed 18:45:21 <10PleasingFungus> where's the rune...? 18:45:21 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081391902609395762/image.png 18:45:25 <10PleasingFungus> (it's in Snake.) 18:49:16 <09gammafunk> you're saying you have the Snake branch but the rune screen thinks you have Swamp? 18:49:55 <09gammafunk> @PleasingFungus what are we calling this branch in non-joke terms, Reach Rework? 18:50:40 <10PleasingFungus> sure 18:50:59 <10PleasingFungus> also i think it's confused because this is a spider / snake game 18:51:08 <10PleasingFungus> from when we were testing changes to spider, probably 18:51:10 <10PleasingFungus> this is also good 18:51:10 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081393366480207872/image.png 18:51:20 <09gammafunk> heh 18:51:22 <09gammafunk> er 18:51:30 <09gammafunk> that was re: that screenshot 18:55:58 <09gammafunk> ok, I'll be getting the branch up in the next 10 minutes or so and will ping you when it's ready. Can you write the discord announcement (probably based on the template/message you used to announce the last experimental (for armataurs, I believe), giving any details you'd like prospective play-testers to have? It will be labeled as Reach Rework on cdi. Feel free to send that at any point after I ping, and let me know if you need 18:55:59 help finding said previous message/template 18:57:25 <09gammafunk> there is a deep mystery as to how I had armataur branch uninstalled yet have no local changes nor local commit in the dgamelaunch-config repo doing the uninstall. like I uninstalled it manually directly in the chroot, like a fool 18:57:41 <10PleasingFungus> lol 19:25:11 <10PleasingFungus> A new twist on polearm reaching is available for playtesting on CDI. To make polearms more fun to use, this experimental build makes players attack whenever they move toward an enemy within reaching range, rather than needing to (or being able to) target specific enemies by e(v)oking their weapon. This also makes reaching work with rampage - nice! A 'walk without reaching' ability is also provided, gratis. Since this is a small 19:25:11 nerf, a compensatory buff is provided - the 50% "failure to reach" effect when attacking over another creature's head has been removed. Try out some different polearm-users, and see how they feel! Does which enemies get hit feel intuitive? Do you find yourself often having to use the 'walk without reaching' ability? Please send in your playtesting feedback - the most helpful comments are based on actual experience, not pure theorycrafting. To play, 19:25:12 register and log in at https://crawl.dcss.io/#lobby and click Reaching Rework under experimentals. You can also play on console via SSH on port 22 with user crawl and using the CAO key. The RC file used is that of your trunk RC, so use the trunk edit rc link to change your settings. All games played on CDI are not scored on CAO or Sequell. @gammafunk here's a draft 19:25:28 <10PleasingFungus> i'll repost this over in the roguelikes discord if that looks good to you 19:25:58 <10PleasingFungus> also i think i've given up on removing shadow wraiths for now. they're in almost 70 (!!!) vaults! simply too much work for something i don't care about 19:27:36 <09gammafunk> yeah there are a lot of thematic spooky vaults and kind of a need for a good range of spookies, including some specifically wraith-themed vaults. Pretty sure they're not super effective monsters, except when used as out-of-depth, but I don't think I've looked much 19:30:08 <09gammafunk> The draft looks good to me. Let me finish build/install/test and I'll ping you before you repost to roguelikes 19:49:23 <09gammafunk> It's all ready, polk away 21:14:17 <10PleasingFungus> @??-version 21:14:18 <04Cerebot> Monster stats Crawl version: 0.30-a0-847-g17996783a1 21:14:21 <10PleasingFungus> oh good 21:24:35 <09gammafunk> bet advil just went and fixed that on cdo 21:30:45 <09gammafunk> *??nightcap 21:30:46 <04Cerebot> unknown monster: "nightcap" 21:30:50 <09gammafunk> *??Night cap 21:30:50 <04Cerebot> unknown monster: "Night cap" 21:31:44 <10PleasingFungus> @??sleepcap 21:31:44 <04Cerebot> sleepcap (f) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 23-31 | AC/EV: 5/0 | Dam: 9(sleep) | plant, unbreathing | Res: will(10), poison, drown, torm | XP: 38 | Sz: tiny | Int: brainless. 21:31:49 <09gammafunk> doh 21:31:50 <10PleasingFungus> might rename em to nightcap 21:31:57 <10PleasingFungus> since it's sort of a slightly more obvious pun 21:32:33 <10PleasingFungus> the current name supposed to be a reference to a classic sleeping cap, like this 21:32:34 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081433981343510528/51PwUdV1ZML.png 21:32:43 <10PleasingFungus> or this stock photo variant 21:32:43 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1081434021067751455/cartoon-blue-sleeping-hat.png 21:33:01 <10PleasingFungus> but i don't know how much people actually think about those 21:33:47 <09gammafunk> get sastreii to put a nightcap on the tile's head to make it more obvious (hilarious!) 21:34:08 <10PleasingFungus> hm. 21:34:22 <09gammafunk> er a sleepcap I guess 21:35:26 <10PleasingFungus> see 21:35:27 <10PleasingFungus> it's fate 21:35:30 <10PleasingFungus> gonna have to rename em 21:35:32 <10PleasingFungus> no way around it 23:34:58 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-852-g08b95dd62f (34) 23:56:54 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-852-g08b95dd62f