01:10:55 New branch created: pull/2998 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2998 01:10:55 03Brian Power02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2998 * 0.30-a0-779-g37481f8fa9: Make yellow draconian look distinct from green draconian for people who are red-green colour-blind 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/37481f8fa9fb 01:31:32 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4884-gcf1f1e11f7 01:56:34 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-1517-gf22570f5e0 04:23:33 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4884-gcf1f1e11f7 06:58:35 I'm having trouble getting a transporter to display with the sewer tile.  No matter what I do with KFEAT or *TILE it always ends up displaying the transporter tile instead.  I traced back through the lm_* files but I can't figure out where the transporter tile is being set in order to figure out what I can do to override either:( . Here's the 06:58:35 basics of what I'm doing, I've tried various other similar things based on the level creation doc files. 06:58:35 MARKER: E = lua:transp_loc("temple_entry") 06:58:35 KFEAT: E = sewer_portal 06:58:35 TILE: E = dngn_portal_sewer_rusted 07:04:18 TryHard88 (L4 FoFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D:2) 07:08:18 <05k​ate> that doesn't sound like something that it should be possible to override? if you're placing a transporter it should use the transporter tile 08:04:23 I timed out and lost whatever was sent to me before on refresh, but I believe I was told using the sewer tile in place of a transporter isn't possible.  Is it possible to make the sewer tile behave like a transporter then?  So intra level instead of inter level/portal? 08:06:34 I tried various greps on the .des files, but I don't think it's being done anywhere for me to copy:( . Or I just don't know what I'm looking for 08:12:12 crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-feat.txt defines what tile(s) can appear for a feature. You could edit that to add a "variation" akin to the dngn_fleshy_orifice in wizlabs which then gets its own tile in dc-feat.txt. 08:13:09 Oh, and "variation" was a bad word, it means something else 08:15:40 However - oh, damn 09:55:40 <05k​ate> i don't know whether it's possible or not either way but what i mainly meant was it's not something that a vault should do, from a design point of view. when a player sees a sewer tile, that should mean it's the entrance to a sewer portal, and when they see a transporter tile, that should mean it's an intra-level transporter 09:57:03 <05k​ate> redefining tiles can be useful for cosmetic stuff, but clarity to the player on what features actually are is more important 10:11:39 kate: I was going to say about that, but also that _console_ players will know what's going on 10:59:07 -!- dulot_34_ is now known as dulo_t-34_ 12:29:54 Hello 12:40:04 I had an unrand-artefact idea: Ring of Gozag's Touch - a fragile ring that turns anything the user kills into gold, but sets the user's gold to 0 when removed 12:41:06 This turned into a couple reddit posts on r/DCSS for feedback and it looks to have a lot of positive reception. 12:43:30 Right now it is in a pull request: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2786, but I think I need a developer with commit access to approve the change to merge it in to the master branch 12:43:58 Is this the right channel to discuss next steps for the PR? 12:44:52 yes, but not everyone's always available. (I'm not a developer, I just help out occasionally) 13:01:44 Hello, Sikorkyl! Very sorry for the long delay on your PR's review - the devs (including myself) have had very little time to work on this project recently. 13:02:59 I think your idea is very imaginative and evocative :) However, I am not sure that an unrand which has the gimmick of 'duplicate a god's most iconic and evocative effect' should be in the game. It would be like an unrand that gives you an ancestral companion like Hepliaklqanal, or that gives you huge stat boosts in exchange for very slow movement like Chei. It makes the god feel less unique. 13:03:29 Gozag does have other abilities than turning enemies into gold, and maybe the ring would end up playing differently. This is just the reason that I'm somewhat reluctant to merge your PR. 13:05:38 PleasingFungus, one could argue Bloodlust already breaks that… and was made even more Trog-like when extending berserk a little on kills was added 13:05:58 <10P​leasingFungus> ehhhhhhh 13:06:34 <10P​leasingFungus> don't agree with that particularly - don't think bloodlust is a worse offender than potions of zerk or the old berserk amulets or orbs of being mad 13:06:42 <10P​leasingFungus> or the other zerk unrands, 13:07:14 <10P​leasingFungus> i'd say that the umbra ring (ring of shadows?) is closer to what i'm talking about here 13:07:41 <10P​leasingFungus> (and this is closer to persuading me to remove those unrands than it is to get me to add new ones!) 13:08:14 well, yes, I admit I wasn't really arguing in favor 13:08:36 I have doubts about deus ex machina 13:10:16 To add a counterpoint, I could see spectral weapons to be similar to Hepliaklqanal. 13:10:16 The main differentiator between Gozag and the Gold Touch unrand-ring is that gold is immediately lost when the ring is removed, so it creates an interesting faustian bargain. 13:12:45 <10P​leasingFungus> how are spectral weapons similar to hep…? 13:12:52 <10P​leasingFungus> i don’t get that at all, sorry 13:13:21 <10P​leasingFungus> i also don’t understand what you mean re faustian bargain 13:13:48 <10P​leasingFungus> isn’t the dynamic just that you wear it until you’ve bought everything you want to, and then you take it off? 13:15:03 Maybe I'm not too familiar with Hep, but spectral weapons create a spectral ally when attacking. And I think this is similar to having Hep's ancestor (at least the melee version) to help in fights. 13:17:26 re Gozag the point of goldifying dead enemies is that gold is Gozag's piety and you use that gold not so much to buy equipment as to enable Gozag's abilities 13:17:29 The faustian bargain is whether to free up a ring slot and lose all gold, at the risk of coming across a new shop later that has an item you really wanted. 13:17:53 and the bargain there is any gold you use on equipment is lost for e.g. potion petition 13:22:29 also, I have to say that I've rarely found myself short on gold for stuff I want, at least by the time I can use said stuff; gold is relatively common already 13:22:55 I think the macro bargain with Gozag is if you leave then all shops close permanently making gold worthless. Since Gozag's powers are very powerful it is seems like leaving Gozag would be rarely done if ever in actual game-play. Adding the ring provides a micro bargain where the gains are smaller (just being able to buy things earlier) and the 13:22:55 negative impact is smaller (losing a ring slot / not being able to buy things). 13:24:16 not all shops, just shops called via the gozag ability 13:24:43 iirc 13:25:33 Oh, I thought it was all shops. From the crawl wiki it does say "any funded stores close". 13:36:24 I could see adding the PR to trunk just to see how it plays out. Trunk is meant for testing out new features. Then, if it turns out it steps too much on Gozag's design space, or is not used then we can simply take it out in the next version. 13:37:13 sorry, was eating lunch 13:38:06 "The faustian bargain is whether to free up a ring slot and lose all gold..." This is still not really a faustian bargain! That's just FOMO. 13:38:31 A faustian bargain would be something like "you get more gold now, but once you take it off, you can never get any gold ever again". Or "you can never take it off - you lose the ring slot permanently." (I am not suggesting these as mechanics, just noting what a 'faustian bargain' would be.) 13:39:09 "I think the macro bargain with Gozag is if you leave then all shops close permanently..." The macro bargain with Gozag, as with most gods, is that if you worship Gozag, you don't get to worship other gods. Gozag costs you your god slot. 13:39:30 The shop thing is very minor - as you said, it's rarely right to leave Gozag, and generally pretty easy to buy anything you really want from his shops before you do. 13:41:29 "I could see adding the PR to trunk just to see how it plays out. Trunk is meant for testing out new features." This is true! However, many players play trunk for fun - there's a balance to be struck between testing and quality control. The cost of discussing a feature before adding it is very low, and if the verdict of that discussion is negative... 13:42:45 and actually, for testing there are experimental branches 13:42:53 and many things die there 13:43:42 true! generally for large, speculative changes 13:44:39 again, i don't want to be too negative here. it seems possible that the strategic gameplay of 'sacrifice your ring slot for a while to get extra gold, and time correctly when to remove it' could be fun! I just want us to be clear about *what* we're adding. 13:50:15 <05k​ate> i'd tend to agree that just mostly copying an existing gimmick without making it particularly unique in some other way doesn't make for a great unrand design - i don't really like the robe of vines for the same reason 13:53:42 <05k​ate> ring of shadows was a good example also (and it's one of the many stealth-themed unrands that have historically struggled to be differentiated, although i guess it has "being a ring of invisibility" going for it now since that's no longer a thing) 13:57:11 "it seems possible that the strategic gameplay of 'sacrifice your ring slot for a while to get extra gold, and time correctly when to remove it' could be fun!  I just want us to be clear about *what* we're adding." Couldn't state it better myself, it seems like it would be useful to test out in trunk. 14:46:49 My complaint is that it's fairly black-and-white on when you remove it—once you have a good amount of gold, dump it all into a shop and then remove the ring. I guess you could argue that if you find a substantially strong ring that you don't have a spare slot for, you could argue that there's a decision on if you want to lose your gold then and there, but that's still not super compelling to me. (Plus at that point in the game there 14:46:49 probably is a shop you could still go and dump gold into.) 14:47:58 methinks they're annoyed that nobody else shares their opinion 14:48:23 I'm better at compiler and filesystem dev than game dev and it still looks fishy to me 14:50:37 Tangentially related, but I do like the idea of an unrand that re-purposes some existing quantity for something new in a way that splits the use of that quantity 14:51:48 So something that uses gold in a new way (e.g., reduces damage) but makes you have less gold (gold goes away when you take that damage). 14:55:11 Or the condition could be the opposite where the unrand benefits you when you have less of that quantity (e.g., benefits you when you have low health/mana/gold) 14:56:35 mm, haven't some of the new early game unrands been exploring that space a bit? 14:57:39 Probably! 15:08:56 <05k​ate> an ancient and longstanding dpeg proposal was a tmut spell that consumes gold to deal damage, i don't think exactly that would be the way to go necessarily but that general space seems fun to think about, yeah 15:11:10 <05k​ate> and unrands are probably the place to do that kind of thing since for something more common like a spell, gold generation wouldn't really be balanced around that other purpose (see also sticks to snakes, sandblast) 15:17:50 <08n​icolae> i have an idea for an unrand that would be an evocable or heavily-reflavored launcher that does Reverse Alchemy: it takes a % of your gold and turns it into lead, shooting mfers with a scattershot-style blast. further ideas: with higher tmut skill, it has a chance of making other metals too (silver, quicksilver, iron, arsenic, plutonium, etc), inflicting various effects in addition to the base damage i have not gotten super far with it 15:17:50 since i'm not sure how best to handle it codewise 15:18:42 03nlavsky02 07* 0.30-a0-779-g7971cf19c3: fix: disallow unequipping cursed weapons 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7971cf19c373 15:56:41 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-779-g7971cf19c3 (34) 16:24:09 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-779-g7971cf19c3 (34) 16:28:36 <10P​leasingFungus> i have a fairly ancient (irradiate-era) for a tmut spell that turns gold into some useful effect (don't think i stole it from dpeg?), but yeah, agree with kate that an unrand would probably work better 17:12:55 With the ring of Gozag's Touch, there's an interesting gameplay tension in two places. 1. When putting the ring on there is building tension to find a good shop, since the ring’s usefulness isn’t realized until gold is spent at a shop. Its value can actually be negative if you start with some gold and remove it before finding a shop. 2. Once a 17:12:56 useful shop is found, there is tension in deciding whether to spend gold and remove the ring, or wait for another shop and risk an early demise. Since it's rare to get an exact amount of gold, players will commonly lose at least some gold when removing the ring. 17:13:08 Addressing some of the feedback: 17:13:14 Differentiation from worshiping Gozag: 17:13:14 The decisions to put the ring on and remove it are the interesting emergent effects not found in just worshiping Gozag. I'd argue that Gozag's other abilities: gold distraction, potion petition, call merchant, and bribe branch are the main draws to worshiping Gozag, not making gold corpses. Making gold corpses is just a means to build the piety for 17:13:15 what you really want: potion petition, call merchant, and bribe branch. The ring doesn’t give those powers so it remains distinct in the design-space from Gozag. 17:13:34 Addressing the argument that gold isn’t really useful: 17:13:34 I agree that gold for shops is pretty low stakes, but that just means it doesn't negatively impact balance in making the item too over powered. It allows for additional flavor and strategy as an early game item without getting too out of control. 17:16:50 "1. When putting the ring on there is building tension to find a good shop, since the ring’s usefulness isn’t realized until gold is spent at a shop." 17:16:50  17:16:50 I don't think I quite understand this, sorry. First, this seems to assume that the player has encountered no useful shops before finding the ring, which seems not very likely. Secondly, it's not clear to me that this is 'tension'. What's the rush...? 17:17:09 "2. Once a useful shop is found, there is tension in deciding whether to spend gold and remove the ring, or wait for another shop and risk an early demise." 17:17:17 Yes, I agree this is the interesting part, as I said above. 17:17:53 "Since it's rare to get an exact amount of gold, players will commonly lose at least some gold when removing the ring." Sure, but it's generally easy to buy some random low-value item and lose only a tiny amount of cash. There's very little tension there. 17:19:08 "I'd argue that Gozag's other abilities: gold distraction, potion petition, call merchant, and bribe branch are the main draws to worshiping Gozag, not making gold corpses..." I agree with this, but if you re-read what I wrote initially, you'll see that I said turning corpses to gold is Gozag's "most iconic and evocative effect". It is literally the touch of Midas. It is a big riff on a classic myth and it is instantly 17:19:08 comprehensible and exciting. 17:20:14 potpet, open shop & bribe branch are *strong* effects, but they aren't *evocative* in the same way that goldification is. Gold distraction is a little bit evocative, but still not nearly as much so as the Midas thing that this unrand is directly stepping on. 17:21:43 I think I would actually like this unrand quite a lot more if it did almost the same thing as it does now (give you gold when you kill things, eat your gold when you take it off, be fragile, use a ring slot) but with a different theme. Maybe it's the ring of triumph - whenever you kill a tough enemy, gold falls on your head. 17:22:30 I'm not sold on that idea specifically, but if you could just put a little distance between this and Gozag, I think it could be a fun effect. Does that make sense? 17:25:24 That's understandable, I mainly drew close to Gozag since it would add more lore/characterization to the god, but it can simply be re-skinned to a different name if that's your main issue with it. 17:26:39 Sorry, it seems like I wasn't quite clear. I'm not just talking about the name, and I'm fine with it being connected to that god. However, it should not mechanically duplicate Gozag's passive effect. It should not turn corpses into gold, and it probably should trigger on some slightly different condition - kills on a subset of enemies, or something else that happens on a regular basis. 17:26:40 I do admit that I have some bias to get this feature in. I did spend the time to code up the artefact effects and even made a nice sprite for it. There was a hack I found in testing where you could just set gold to not auto-pickup, then pick up the gold after removing the ring. I added a really cool gold-magnet feature which sucks the gold towards 17:26:40 you to resolve that corner case. 17:27:09 Making the gold fall directly on your head fixes that problem nicely :) 17:27:24 I definitely understand wanting to get your work in! It looks like you worked really hard on this, and I appreciate that. 17:27:43 I'm trying to explain to you what I'd need to believe that merging this would be a net positive for the game and its players. 17:28:08 I don't think you're terribly far off, I just think that some moderate-sized tweaks are needed. (As outlined above.) 17:32:59 Thanks! I could see changing the effect to, for example: apply only to monsters killed by melee attacks. It'd fit thematically in needing to physically touch the monster, but I'm not in love with the idea of making it useless for casters from a gameplay standpoint. 17:33:38 <10P​leasingFungus> i definitely would not encourage that idea 17:34:04 <10P​leasingFungus> anything that encourages switching to melee for final blows creates very unfun gameplay 17:34:11 Agreed 17:34:18 <10P​leasingFungus> esp if there are strategic consequences 17:34:42 <10P​leasingFungus> (wyrmbane was a mistake, but it’s grandfathered in so it gets an exemption :p) 17:43:46 I think applying gold-touch to a subset of enemies instead of all enemies might make the income stream of gold too inconsistent. The other different concept off the top of my head, is to make picked up items turn into gold. But that sounds like a terrible idea that'd lead to unfun gameplay. 17:45:00 <10P​leasingFungus> yeah definitely don't do that 😛 17:45:10 <10P​leasingFungus> you didn't like the idea of making it apply to only 'tough' and 'nasty' enemies? 17:45:30 <10P​leasingFungus> i'm not totally sure i like it, but it does seem sort of exciting. you kill a scary guy and you get some gold! score! 17:45:49 <10P​leasingFungus> might encourage players to make risky decisions, which is unwise but very fun & funny 17:50:14 That does sound good to incentivize risky play. I'm okay as long as the gold payout is balanced to about the same amount that you'd get in the other scenario. 18:46:30 <09g​ammafunk> The rare irc-based PleasingFungus :wfrShock: 18:47:20 Feline (L20 FeCK) ASSERT(result != OBJ_RANDOM) in 'acquire.cc' at line 542 failed. (Vaults:3) 22:14:57 Another thing riffing on my early thought: benefits with few (or maybe many? seems boring though) consumables (could be janky, would have to include consumables below you to stop cheese with dropping them), 22:15:35 Maybe also an interaction between low/high mana and melee benefits. Get some slay bonus or increased weapon speed or whatever with low mana. 22:16:42 Could be pretty strong but also very fun, and probably good feel between switching between "blaster caster" and "melee death train" 22:20:50 Nears Uskayaw territory but something that rewards being in fights for long periods of time. (Increased health/mana regen, maybe even increased spell power?) 22:22:18 Obviously none of these are very simple easy to understand unrands but I feel like it's fair to have a few mechanically unique ones out there 22:23:34 I do like the low mana one though. Would have to be on amount of mana and not percentile so you can't game it as a low-mana char by just using one invo or something, so it probably leans towards benefiting casters the most 22:23:48 Well, hybrid casters that are more caster anyway 23:56:11 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-779-g7971cf19c3