00:48:33 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-748-ge6a52f7cba (34) 00:54:36 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-748-ge6a52f7cba 01:32:10 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 02:54:18 <08nlavsky> Malmutating your enemies is generically useful, whether you fight a death yak or Cerebov. So I don't think lowering the spell's damage the third (?) time is gonna help. You already need to cast it 2-3 times to kill a dancing weapon, compared to 1-2 times before nerfs. 02:54:25 <08nlavsky> If we really want to make it into a situational/non-spammable spell, it might make sense to add a new thematically-appropriate drawback. Let Irradiate have a chance to give a temporary bad mutation to the caster. The chance could scale with contamination, starting from 1/2 or 1/3 chance if you have no contamination. 03:01:50 <08nlavsky> Also, speaking about skilled speedrun players, it'd be great to fix the most tediously optimal strategy in the game, that is, POG-walking. Although, I'm not sure how a fix would look like 03:07:51 bcrawl (and we, now) gave Irradiate Sap Magic, which means it's not just hard to spam but has ongoing consequences for other magic use in the same encounter 03:09:36 <08nlavsky> Do you use old Sap Magic, which lowered spell success chance or the new one, that gives -Cast? 03:13:09 The old one. 03:14:09 <08nlavsky> Yeah, it looks like a good option too. 04:22:41 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 04:24:56 Certainly better than trying to nibble away at Irradiate's damage until _one_ cast of it isn't very satisfying (and maybe can't be done since as you note malmutate is generically useful) 05:18:24 <09gammafunk> @nlavsky I think adding additional indirect annoyances likewise like temp malmut and casting penalties usually (but not always) isn't the way to go for balancing spells. Adding more complexity and annoyance, and the indirect often doesn't target the balance aspect that's the biggest source of concern all that well 05:19:04 <09gammafunk> and it would be quite weird for it to have a contam system AND a secondary penalty system 05:27:55 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-748-ge6a52f7 (34) 05:41:40 <08nlavsky> I like Kiss of Death's design, the combination of amazing damage and its Drain being a strategic cost, which prevents the player from spamming the spell. 05:43:03 <08nlavsky> Temp malmuts could play the same role for Irradiate 05:43:43 <08nlavsky> and I'm sure the players like mutations, right? 🙂 05:44:21 <09gammafunk> Yeah, it could work as a replacement for contam 05:44:29 <08nlavsky> could even make the 1st (0 contam) cast malmut-free and buff the damage 05:45:21 <08nlavsky> yeah, contam might be an indicator of malmut chance, but it could be thrown away too 05:56:19 <09gammafunk> it’s a lot checking A after casts to see what you rolled though, might not play the best. But the randomness of it might be fun. Maybe the immediacy of when you experience negative effects from temp mutations would make irradiate more limited in use, but I’m skeptical. Kiss of death has the benefit of being low level and can be outclassed in terms of damage 05:57:55 <09gammafunk> Drain is fairly quickly very dangerous at the xl you cast kod and that probably helps too 09:01:09 <10PleasingFungus> agree with gamma about 'a lot of checking A' 09:01:32 <10PleasingFungus> and about having both a contam system and separate temp malmut system being overly complex 09:02:40 <10PleasingFungus> if the problem is that malmuting enemies is too strong, you could lower the chance of malmut applying from 100% to 50% or 33% (or something power/hd dependent), or decrease the effects of malmut (since it's only really used by yara's & lugonu's banishment otherwise) 09:07:32 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-749-g7f663e2a95: Halve the chance of Irradiate malmutation 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f663e2a95ad 09:13:50 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-750-g8343f060c3: Add a message for monsters recalled away 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8343f060c3f7 09:23:18 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-751-gb7baff67ae: Add a runrest stop for out-of-LOS shots (dilly) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b7baff67ae36 09:23:38 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-750-g8343f060c3 (34) 09:32:48 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-752-gab721bf1f9: Ban usk piety for nameless horrors (dilly) 10(27 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ab721bf1f976 09:35:50 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-751-gb7baff67ae (34) 09:39:07 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-753-gbd6742b3f2: Add a message when stepping near slime walls (dilly) 10(28 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd6742b3f20c 09:50:43 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-753-gbd6742b3f2 (34) 11:02:23 <08nlavsky> re: 'a lot of checking A', now the player needs to xv monsters to see if they got malmutated (so you can hex them with spells or wands) 🙂 . It'd be nice to have a status icon for this status. 11:05:33 <08nlavsky> Also, "a lot of checking A" perfectly describes any fight against a wretched star 11:13:34 <10PleasingFungus> status icon sounds doable, though i would think that you would probably check hex success anyway 11:13:51 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t think the entire game should become wretched star fights 🙂 11:14:52 <08nlavsky> Temp Mutations Crawl: all penalties are replaced with temp muts 11:15:15 <10PleasingFungus> vaguely thinking about a naga exclusive mut that gives extra ac and slower move 11:15:18 <10PleasingFungus> deep naga 11:15:20 <10PleasingFungus> mostly unrelated 11:15:43 <08nlavsky> "heavy scales" 11:15:43 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t know if it’s a goodmut or a badmut… 12:46:28 <08nicolae> midmut 13:17:10 <09gammafunk> Coming soon in my wiki guide: Chei makes slow movement from the Naga scales mut literally irrelevant 13:24:28 <08nlavsky> "a naga exclusive mut" Could it be a naga and armataur exclusive mut, since Ats also have scales? 13:26:26 <08nlavsky> (also, it's definitely a bad mutation) 13:30:50 <08nlavsky> Wait, wasn't Slow and Fast available to everyone previously, as a random mutation? 13:32:14 <08nlavsky> "Drop MUT_SLOW and MUT_FAST as random mutations", 1d962ef99c5e0 13:41:50 <10PleasingFungus> i very intentionally do not want to have a slow movement mut for normal speed species, for the same reason that https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d962ef99c5e0 removed them 13:41:58 <10PleasingFungus> but for a naga it seems perhaps less impactful 13:46:10 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-754-gf493690b3a: Fix apportation + mimics (dilly, acrobat) 10(57 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f493690b3a5b 13:50:14 <10PleasingFungus> (dracs also have scales, as do many demonspawn, as does any player species that rolls a scales mut. but i don't think that has any particular bearing on whether a slow move mut is a good design for them. 🙂 14:05:12 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-754-gf493690b3a (34) 15:25:41 <09gammafunk> Time-based scoring! 15:26:58 03|amethyst02 07* 0.30-a0-755-g0b50240ab4: Add a sphinx quote. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b50240ab40b 15:29:05 <|amethyst> (commit comment) "now now corrected"... This is why editors exist and why I am not one 15:29:09 <09gammafunk> |amethyst: “now now corrected” in commit message intentional? 15:29:13 <09gammafunk> Lol 15:30:21 <09gammafunk> Never bother reading the commit messages before pushing, since you can’t see the error anyhow 15:30:38 <|amethyst> fun fact, I have been an editor in the past.... There was no interview or skills test, obv 15:31:08 <09gammafunk> I’ve used an editor before 15:31:18 <09gammafunk> It was called ed 15:31:30 <|amethyst> ed, man! !man ed 15:32:07 <|amethyst> Somehow, "git push" (and only push) removes the natural block one has one seeing one's own typos 15:32:18 <|amethyst> s/one/on/ # bah! bah! 15:32:37 <|amethyst> And please ignore that I replaced the wrong "one" 15:32:52 <09gammafunk> worst is when you carefully check the commit message body before pushing 15:33:08 <09gammafunk> Only to miss the error in the commit title 15:33:44 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-755-g0b50240ab4 (34) 15:34:21 <|amethyst> Fortunately I have, for stylistic reasons, intentionally used grammatically incorrect commit titles in the past 15:34:29 <|amethyst> so people will just be left to wonder 15:36:36 07|amethyst02 * 0.26-a0-1182-g197f7f9d65: Fix no longer fix grammar (realallion) 10(2 years, 1 month ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/197f7f9d65c9 15:36:36 <|amethyst> %git 197f7f9d65 15:37:17 <|amethyst> Also, would you believe they put me in charge of my department's entire undergraduate curriculum? 15:37:21 <|amethyst> Fools! 15:57:13 <|amethyst> (since this is all logged, I should say that "Fools!" is hyperbole and not an actual judgment of anyone involved in that decision #CYA ) 16:20:51 <10PleasingFungus> fools! 16:21:46 <|amethyst> @crawlcode #fools 16:22:27 <|amethyst> Maybe we should set out a collection plate to get a gold checkmark or whatever it is 16:23:16 <|amethyst> and then, not actually give it to Twitter, but spend it on Turkish/Kurdish/etc. earthquake victims or something 16:24:19 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-755-g0b50240ab4 (34) 16:25:22 <|amethyst> (especially since someone on our sub-Reddit recently said "Iskenderun is a place in Turkey that I just learned bc of the earthquakes") 16:26:13 <10PleasingFungus> you can only pay for blue checkmarks, and i'm not sure how much we want to say "hey, please let us pay twitter for a vanity plate!", even as a gag 16:26:48 <|amethyst> no, we should give no money to Twitter for any reason 16:27:33 <10PleasingFungus> sure 16:27:52 Hi everyone, I’m someone who’s fairly new to programming and I’m making arrival vaults for crawl. I want to know if someone can help me out or point me to a reference guide for using lua to make triggerable events for vaults. All I want is to program certain tiles to change from red smoke to green smoke and back when the player moves to 16:27:55 certain squares. I have read the vault design reference guide on the developer wiki pretty thoroughly, but still don’t understand what I should be writing. The wiki guide to lua is a bit sparse for my pea brain. I’ve never used IRC or interacted with the community here so I’m sorry if this message breaks some rules of etiquette. Thank you. 16:28:17 <|amethyst> unless they set up a fund to launch their owner towards Mars to meet up with his ancestors 16:28:19 <10PleasingFungus> if we want to raise money for earthquake victims, we should probably find a worthy looking charity and point folks toward it, maybe ask admins to put up a lil temporary notice 16:28:25 <|amethyst> in which case, sure, I'll donate 16:28:51 <10PleasingFungus> winth80: hello! 🙂 16:29:00 <10PleasingFungus> no need to worry about etiquette, you’re fine 16:29:10 Okay, cool! Hi. 16:29:17 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: That should probably be up to the individual server operators, but if any of them want to do that, good on them! 16:29:27 <10PleasingFungus> agree 16:29:50 <10PleasingFungus> re lua triggers, i’d try browsing through existing vaults to find some that do what you want 16:30:01 <10PleasingFungus> we don’t have many that have floor triggered events 16:30:11 <10PleasingFungus> but iirc there’s an oka one that does haiku 16:30:18 <10PleasingFungus> so you could try to find that 16:30:45 <10PleasingFungus> re clouds, try looking in… l-dgn.cc, maybe? this is from memory, sorry 16:31:08 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t know if we have a lua api that can replace existing clouds 16:31:11 <|amethyst> If you haven't seen it yet, you should look at docs/develop/levles/triggerables.txt in the source 16:31:28 <10PleasingFungus> why do you want this red green cloud setup? 16:31:30 <|amethyst> though it doesn't answer your immediate question 16:32:02 <|amethyst> s/levles/levels 16:32:13 <|amethyst> Christmas! 16:32:45 <10PleasingFungus> a bit late… 16:32:58 <|amethyst> or more than a bit early! 16:33:30 All the vaults I've looked at that use Lua, and I haven't looked at all of them, don't do what I'm thinking of, but I'll take a closer look. Maybe a deeper question here is how people learn to program stuff in crawl these days. Earlier I was trying to debug a simple bug where orb spiders and other monsters move around while asleep, and I found the 16:33:30 code bewildering. Some parts of the code are super kludgy and mysterious to me, though I can't tell how much of that is because I'm a novice. 16:34:20 I want this red green cloud set up to simulate traffic lights as a fun arrival vault thing. 16:34:57 <|amethyst> Aha! 16:35:20 <|amethyst> I was about to ask whether the switch would be entirely random, or triggered by something 16:35:45 <|amethyst> Either way, you'll probably have to do C++, not just Lua 16:35:57 |amethyst: owner> he's not a co-founder by now? 16:36:11 That's not bad news, I'm studying C++. 16:36:15 <05kate> it's sort of a tricky codebase to work with just by virtue of being so old and having been worked on by so many different people, so bugs that look simple can definitely end up being much more complicated than you'd expect (eg i know that orb spider-related weirdness has been around and unfixed for quite some time) 16:36:39 <|amethyst> I refuse to admit any faults in the implementation of orb spiders 16:37:00 <|amethyst> If there are bugs, someone else introduced them 16:37:25 The bug seems to affect all monsters that have the move-to-range property, such as merfolk avatars. 16:37:55 <|amethyst> Oh, did someone else use my hack? 16:38:03 Lol 16:38:27 <|amethyst> As you can see, we're kind of a loose bunch here 16:38:41 Winth80: How hard is it to provoke? I don't think I've seen this, but then if I see a sleeping orb spider I generally wake it up 16:39:46 Easily replicated in wizard mode. I just put a spider to sleep using ensorcelled hibernation at max power and moved towards it and it moved back while asleep. 16:39:58 <|amethyst> nice! 16:40:46 <|amethyst> Do you have a github account? 16:41:07 <|amethyst> If so, file that as an issue so we don't forget 16:41:17 Yes and someone else filed the issue already. 16:42:14 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/2992 is fear, not sleep 16:42:23 <|amethyst> ah 16:42:36 There's one for sleep. 16:43:12 Ah, #2972, 2 weeks old 16:43:25 <|amethyst> hmmm 16:44:39 <|amethyst> kind of curious how that happens, since _set_firing_pos shouldn't make the monster change its behaviour, just update where it wants to be 16:45:16 <|amethyst> and M_MAINTAIN_RANGE only results in calls to _set_firing_pos 16:45:48 <|amethyst> since both of those are from the past couple of weeks, I wonder if something relevant has changed 16:47:09 <05kate> there's also a similar mantis bug from quite some time ago https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5099 16:48:00 <05kate> although it seems basically 100% reproducible now so it's still maybe feasible that something's changed to make it happen more often? 16:48:08 <|amethyst> huh, good catch! And apparently I even commented on that bug and then forgot about it 16:48:24 <05kate> oh hah yeah 16:53:17 <|amethyst> Hmm, though if MfAv are affected... they don't have M_MAINTAIN_RANGE 16:53:30 <|amethyst> so what do they have in common with orb spiders? 16:54:41 I'm testing the bug now and orb spiders are still affected. Testing merfolk avatars now. 16:55:09 In Tiles 0.30 16:56:00 Merfolk avatars are also still affected. 16:56:23 You're sure they don't have M_MAINTAIN_RANGE? They behave as if they do 16:56:29 <05kate> merfolk avatars also have some special repositioning code, it's just their own special handling rather than being the same as M_MAINTAIN_RANGE 16:56:42 <10PleasingFungus> { MONS_MERFOLK_AVATAR, 'm', LIGHTCYAN, "merfolk avatar", M_WARM_BLOOD | M_SPEAKS | M_NO_GEN_DERIVED, 16:56:47 <10PleasingFungus> but yeah what kate said 16:57:03 <05kate> they try to get into lots of deep water 16:59:52 <|amethyst> both of which involve changing mons->firing_pos (though not with _set_firing_pos()) 17:23:34 03kate-02 07* 0.30-a0-756-gc2185399d4: Fix Arcjolt range handling (#2875) 10(14 minutes ago, 7 files, 12+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c2185399d484 17:24:39 <10PleasingFungus> ah, nice fix, ty! 17:25:31 <05kate> i could also see fixing that by leaving it at range 5 and just special casing servitors (since it's sort of nice that the max range showed up on the spell list) but that seems like it would be at risk of breaking somewhere else too, maybe 17:25:48 <10PleasingFungus> don't feel strongly about it 17:26:00 <10PleasingFungus> the max range only exists so that veh's range extension can in principle do something 17:26:05 <10PleasingFungus> idk how often it matters 17:26:19 <05kate> ahh right, i probably just broke that 17:26:21 <10PleasingFungus> haha 17:26:23 <10PleasingFungus> might be right to just toss it 17:26:29 <10PleasingFungus> the max range of arcjolt, i mean 17:26:33 <10PleasingFungus> simplicity and all that 17:26:35 <10PleasingFungus> poor veh ;_; 17:27:13 <05kate> everything connected to you in LOS doesn't seem too substantially different from everything up to range 5, yeah 17:29:57 <10PleasingFungus> vaguely think base range needs to go to 3 (or 2?) or just infinite yeah 17:30:11 <10PleasingFungus> infinite is probably more fun 17:30:28 <05kate> honestly i sort of already thought it was just everything connected to you full stop 17:39:24 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-756-gc2185399d4 (34) 18:19:38 <|amethyst> yeah, I didn't realise there were limits beyond that, either 18:20:25 <|amethyst> also, since I have been enjoying Veh range extension on IMB: 18:20:37 <|amethyst> should there also be some kind of extension on Hailstorm? 18:20:46 <|amethyst> like range 2-4 instead of 2-3? 18:25:09 <10PleasingFungus> hailstorm is actually special-cased not to do range extension. the devs feared it would be too huge a power difference 18:25:10 <08nicolae> what restrictions does arcjolt currently have, does it only hit a guy once, maybe that could be veh's range extension. it can hit a guy twice 18:25:20 <10PleasingFungus> that doesn't really seem like range extension, tbh 18:25:47 <08nicolae> well it goes one way, and then it goes the other way, but it's going longer in total. the math checks out. 18:26:21 <|amethyst> let it hit out-of-sight creatures under Veh. What could go wrong? 18:27:57 <10PleasingFungus> setting up an arcjolt that hits an out of sight monster honestly takes some work 18:30:01 <|amethyst> PF: hmm, but extra range to hailstorm would be only 1.8x as many squares, whereas IMB is 2x as many 18:30:11 <|amethyst> though hailstorm does have more damage, and is lower-level 18:33:55 <08nicolae> make hailstorm's range extend in both directions, inward and outward, but not guaranteed, so at ranges 1 and 4 there's like a 50/50 chance that a given square will be hailstrommed 18:34:45 <09hellmonk> make veh hailstorm only hit at range 3 and 4 and not at range 2 18:35:32 <|amethyst> hellmonk: I was thinking of suggesting that very thing as a joke 18:39:48 <10PleasingFungus> it would be very funny 18:40:03 <10PleasingFungus> anyway i don't have an opinion about hailstorm range plus veh 18:40:09 <10PleasingFungus> i'm just relaying my understanding of the original reasoning 18:40:14 <10PleasingFungus> ??imb 18:40:14 <04Cerebot> Iskenderun's mystic blast[1/3]: L4 Cj/TLoc. Damages and knocks back each enemy within 2 tiles of the player. Can miss. Knocks back monsters at least 2 tiles, scaling up with power. 18:40:24 <10PleasingFungus> huh, i guess hailstorm is lower level now 18:42:20 <10PleasingFungus> %git 03648482507 18:42:20 <04Cerebot> ebering * 0.25-a0-213-g0364848250: Positional magic ❄️: New Ice spell: Hailstorm (3 years, 4 months ago, 8 files, 125+ 0-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/036484825079 18:42:31 <10PleasingFungus> > Currently, Veh does not add a fourth ring, that would almost > double the number of affected squares. 18:43:59 <10PleasingFungus> the average player is not surrounded by a radius-4 sphere of monsters, so i'm not sure how impactful this would actually be 18:44:04 <10PleasingFungus> (spiders georg is an outlier and 18:50:29 <|amethyst> yeah, tbh I feel like IMB's extension is quite overpowered, much more than Hailstorm's would be 18:51:16 <|amethyst> as I mentioned, that does fully double the number of squares (24 to 48) 18:51:27 <|amethyst> more than Hailstorm would 19:41:16 <10PleasingFungus> nerf! 23:53:06 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-757-ga6a79fd877: Fix: cap doom howl power (acrobat) 10(58 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a6a79fd87722