00:48:13 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-605-gb2882149bf (34) 00:54:18 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-605-gb2882149bf 01:36:39 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 04:22:34 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 05:24:02 03nlavsky02 07* 0.30-a0-606-ga80edbb7d7: fix: make equip_unequip work again (#2915) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a80edbb7d7fd 05:28:06 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-605-gb288214 (34) 05:33:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-606-ga80edbb7d7 (34) 05:43:43 <08nlavsky> There is a bug that duplicates confirmation prompts when you equip/unequip items with Drain, Contam, or with some inscriptions. I've poked it for a couple days, but w/o much success, so I'll post it on GitHub 09:13:48 03kate-02 07* 0.30-a0-607-g182fdc4e28: Adjust Blinkbolt targeting restrictions 10(26 minutes ago, 1 file, 22+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/182fdc4e2886 09:13:48 03kate-02 07* 0.30-a0-608-g0e55d2c15d: Make Shadow Step and Blinkbolt check constriction 10(16 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e55d2c15d9d 09:19:20 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-608-g0e55d2c15d (34) 15:42:56 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-609-g59b6b8e1d4: New unrand: slick slippers 10(20 minutes ago, 11 files, 54+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/59b6b8e1d4c8 15:49:14 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-610-gb513c0a51f: Make the slick slippers +1 10(33 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b513c0a51fa0 16:01:23 04Build failed for 08master @ 59b6b8e1 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/3864238090 16:07:32 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-609-g59b6b8e1d4 (34) 16:18:43 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-610-gb513c0a51f (34) 16:24:23 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-610-gb513c0a51f (34) 16:59:33 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-611-g5309dc90a7: Clarify Deal Four description (Booper) 10(78 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5309dc90a741 17:03:53 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-611-g5309dc90a7 (34) 17:21:23 speaking of nemelex xobeh 17:21:26 where's the 4th suit 17:21:48 destruction, escape, summoning... no hexes? 17:34:08 <10PleasingFungus> wonders was removed 17:34:12 <10PleasingFungus> tragically 17:36:35 <08nicolae> what if it came back. what if... there were wonders again 17:38:04 <10PleasingFungus> seems unwise 17:44:29 why's that 17:45:13 nerf, retune.. but removal? 18:06:47 <09gammafunk> we remove a lot of things when the design doesn't work well 18:07:13 <09gammafunk> rebalancing things that don't work mostly due to balance issues is great, but sometimes the design just doesn't work on a fundamental level 18:10:07 so wonders was... poorly designed? too strong or not strong enough? 18:10:14 <10PleasingFungus> neither 18:10:25 <10PleasingFungus> too strong or too weak is generally easy to fix 18:10:40 sometimes stuff makes sense and sometimes it's like "we removed deep dwarves because we wanted to add another race and we can't have more than 27 races" 18:10:41 <10PleasingFungus> the problem is that it made the game less fun 18:10:56 <10PleasingFungus> i mean, that isn’t why deep dwarves were removed :p 18:11:38 or mountain dwarves, high elves, halflings and numerous others "not providing anything unique" 18:11:42 bring on race 28 18:11:59 <10PleasingFungus> it’s closer to true, though still incorrect, to say that the only reason dd weren’t removed sooner is that i like having 27 species 18:12:22 <10PleasingFungus> there are several others i have my eye on 18:12:32 on removing? 18:12:38 <10PleasingFungus> yep 18:13:03 <10PleasingFungus> think crawl has something on the order of 10-20ish well designed species 18:13:13 <10PleasingFungus> depending on how picky you want to be 18:14:04 <09gammafunk> if you want to have a game with a lot of species, you're going to have to have some that are relatively weak designs 18:14:08 i'm assuming the definition of well designed is "brings something unique and is fun to play without being broken" 18:14:29 <10PleasingFungus> don’t care much about the idea of ‘broken’ 18:14:32 yeah but if something is weak it's easy to buff it other than just handwave it out 18:14:50 <10PleasingFungus> but otherwise sure 18:14:50 <09gammafunk> but md, he, ha, and numerous others that don't provide something sufficiently interesting were removed and replaced with something more interesting 18:14:52 i knew a game designer who would actively nerf anything that became popular 18:15:11 <10PleasingFungus> there’s a really interesting conversation to be had about the value of novelty vs focusing on the best play experiences & avoiding overwhelming players with choices 18:15:33 <10PleasingFungus> but removal’s gotta be on the table 18:15:33 <09gammafunk> it's not a problem of whether it's easy to buff it, those species were generally reasonably strong 18:15:44 i think the idea of not overwhelming a player of a roguelike with choices is a bit daft to begin with 18:15:44 <09gammafunk> but they had designs that weren't very interesting or didn't work very well 18:15:50 it's a roguelike 18:15:54 <09gammafunk> ? 18:16:30 you have to consult the wikipedia constantly to make informed decisions, how can overwhelming a player be a consideration at all 18:16:41 <09gammafunk> quite a lot of roguelikes don't overwhelm the player with choices, rogue itself, nethack has far fewer species 18:16:59 <09gammafunk> so you don't need a wall of choices to have a roguelike 18:17:13 yeah that has always been the draw of crawl, having lots of different things to do 18:17:15 <10PleasingFungus> don’t think dcss needs or expects players to consult the wiki at all 18:17:22 <10PleasingFungus> much less constantly :p 18:17:48 <09gammafunk> I mean, crawl has 27 species, and almost as many classes, so well over 600 unique combos, so it has lots of of different things to do 18:18:11 i have encyclopedic knowledge of nethack and the specifics of how the two are different are very glaring 18:18:11 <09gammafunk> yeah we don't design the game with the idea that players need to read a wiki or watch some video or read some guide 18:19:05 <09gammafunk> well, why did you claim that you have to have overwhelming character choices to have a roguelike? it's not true! you can't have quite the range of player choices and have an engaging game 18:19:50 the lack of "choices" in nethack is instead replaced by the need to think about what you have, what you've found, and how to ID things that you haven't 18:20:09 and doing crap like digging pits for future fights 18:20:45 <09gammafunk> dcss has just loads of tactical decisions you need to make if you want to win 18:21:06 <09gammafunk> anyhow, we're not going to drastically reduce the number of species/classes any time soon, but like PleasingFungus is saying, we're always open to improving designs to make the choices interesting, and are generally ok with removing a thing whose design doesn't work and replacing it with something that does 18:21:43 <09gammafunk> this is an iterative process with a good deal of subjectivity, and devs often don't fully agree, but removal is always and option we've made available 18:22:24 i'm curious if there's a "future design changes" document or whatever to look at 18:22:47 <09gammafunk> there are a bunch, check out the crawl github wiki, but keep in mind that we often don't keep those up to date 18:23:17 <09gammafunk> it's more a source of future ideas and a way to share design plans with other devs and get feedback 18:23:32 <09gammafunk> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki 18:24:06 i'd offer my services as a dev but honestly i'm far more effective as an artist 18:24:29 which btw i'll get that mockup done sometime tonight or tomorrow i've just been playing lots of games and battling anxiety over job interviews so meh 18:25:03 <09gammafunk> personally, my suggestion is to hang around for a while, listening to how devs chat about design changes. you get to learn a lot about what "works" for design for this particular game, and you'll find it improves your own thought process 18:25:45 there are things about this game i've never learned that i still need to experience, so my ability to input things is limited to "somewhat new player" 18:26:22 but i have friends that have quit playing due to weird decisions like removing mountain dwarves, which is why i beat that drum 18:26:32 <09gammafunk> well playing a bunch and getting better at the game is very good if you want to work on the design 18:26:35 seems better to fix such an iconic part of fantasy than just rmeove it 18:28:21 <09gammafunk> right, you can't make everyone happy. We can only make a game that we're pleased with. Most players stick around for a while even if they're not happy with one particular change 18:29:12 <09gammafunk> And there are definitely roguelikes that try to be a bit more maximal in terms of anything goes and never removing things, but dcss just isn't one of those games 18:29:43 <09gammafunk> Also, I will never allow PleasingFungus to remove humans. (I know they're on his list!!!) 18:30:06 speaking candidly they're probably the most pointless race 18:30:26 <10PleasingFungus> i’ve slowly warmed to humans over time 18:30:33 if we're removing stuff for not bringing unique features to the table 18:30:37 <10PleasingFungus> they have their own charm 18:30:50 <09gammafunk> :wfrDerp: 18:31:04 <10PleasingFungus> i disliked them a lot more before we added the species categories 18:31:32 <10PleasingFungus> now new players are warned away from em 18:42:30 <10PleasingFungus> md specifically was an interesting case in that some species (orc/minotaur/dwarf) was going to be cut, beogh saved orcs and minotaurs were saved for flavour reasons 18:43:31 <10PleasingFungus> that is, the devteam at the time actively disliked md flavour for the same reason your friends liked it - ‘an iconic part of fantasy’ rhymes with ‘a rip from tolkein’ :p 18:43:41 <10PleasingFungus> maybe hellmo will bring md back. who can say 18:51:29 <09gammafunk> mountain dorks 19:01:22 <10PleasingFungus> ya 19:02:10 <09hellmonk> Mountain orcs 19:34:33 <10PleasingFungus> morcs… and mindy?! 19:51:21 <09gammafunk> need a blindy unique 21:13:01 mirror golem 21:20:53 @PF: I feel like slick slippers should probably be an ego and an artprop instead of an unrand: That effect is useful defensively, somewhat dangerous for the player to use improperly, and it's a dynamic repositioning effect; the game has a surfeit of boot egos/props and it seems like it would make a good one / it would be a bit of a waste to place 21:20:53 it behind the rarity of an unrand 21:32:35 <10PleasingFungus> implojin: i considered it! two points: 21:34:00 <10PleasingFungus> 1) making it an unrand is a bit ‘safer’, since it is, as you said, rare and hence low impact on the average game. if players find it fun and useful in practice, we can make it more common as an ego, but i wasn’t confident enough in the effect to start there 21:35:20 <10PleasingFungus> 2) banning constrict and engulf is really nice for avoiding weird special cases, but seems too complex for an ego. (i suppose it wouldn’t be the end of the world to deal with those cases, but again, i preferred to start out without worrying about them.) 21:35:29 <10PleasingFungus> does that make sense to you? 21:38:23 introducing it as an unrand in case playtesting reveals it doesn't work great for whatever reason makes sense but I think you should probably go for it if the implementation isn't hugely onerous 21:39:25 compare to stealth and flying? this is exactly the kind of repositioning effect the game needs more of in small, well-designed doses 21:40:37 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, thinking about it a bit more, i don’t think implementation would be super hard 21:42:44 maybe this could be a kind of thing like what kate did with 7-league where the unrand is a more powerful version of the effect, somehow 21:44:42 harm stacking... 21:45:20 i actually wrote a branch to make rampage stack but i never submitted it -.- 21:45:25 <10PleasingFungus> lol 21:49:19 <10PleasingFungus> i think just having the ev and the rconstrict etc would be enough for it to be a fine unrand, even if slippery was no longer unique to it 21:49:42 yeah, probably 21:49:59 <10PleasingFungus> i just implemented it after relatively little thought, so wasn’t confident it was ‘well-designed’ :p 21:50:23 somewhat got that impression from the skyshark description but it sounds like a fun effect 21:50:45 <10PleasingFungus> haha 21:50:48 <10PleasingFungus> ty 🙂 22:08:50 <10PleasingFungus> tbh the skyshark bit was more or less standard lore for me… the name + inscription combo was the real goof 22:09:26 <10PleasingFungus> also i kind of want a skyshark enemy now 22:09:31 <10PleasingFungus> subterranean skyshark 22:09:50 <10PleasingFungus> uses the old shark tile 22:10:15 <10PleasingFungus> appears in shoals or lair, maybe. not sure what it does 22:10:35 <10PleasingFungus> maybe it berserks if it draws blood 22:10:54 zot clock replacement: hungry hungry skysharks, they drag you down to the next floor 22:12:02 <10PleasingFungus> wow 22:18:25 but then you have to write some lore about how meteorans are natural enemies of skysharks and live their lives constantly on the run from flocking murders of skysharks 22:19:03 sometimes they stand and fight but it never works out well 22:21:34 skysharks should replace harpies since hunger isn't a thing anymore, qed 22:25:39 <10PleasingFungus> lol 22:26:00 <10PleasingFungus> i also sort of want a monster with slippery (reverse trample) 22:26:19 <10PleasingFungus> feels like a swamp creature, like swamp worms 22:26:25 <10PleasingFungus> but maybe that's too close to the existing one 22:29:18 i was thinking about reverse trample / knockback as a 2h mace ego that deals damage on impact with terrain or actors, but that would translate into an infinite escape tool 22:30:07 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-612-g150a0467c1: Fix rBlind description (BlurryCent) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/150a0467c1b5 22:30:08 <10PleasingFungus> i've been thinking of various form of player knockback for years, but it is a very strong effect 22:30:25 <10PleasingFungus> especially when it doesn't cost an action, but is 'free' in combination with something else (an attack, etc) 22:31:05 <10PleasingFungus> however, as always, you could probably get away with it (at some % trigger chance) on an unrand 😛 22:31:28 <10PleasingFungus> my old friend nrook once said something like 'unrands is where devs put all their bad ideas'. it's fine! it's just an unrand 22:32:00 i mean, just making it a % chance is already enough to force players to respond to horrible situations with a more immediate effect 22:32:42 heh 22:33:04 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, but i'm less focused on horrible situations and more on 'it is effectively free turns in a ton of cases' 22:33:10 <10PleasingFungus> (when fighting a yak, etc) 22:33:16 <10PleasingFungus> and occasional free disengages 22:33:16 sure 22:33:28 <10PleasingFungus> that is just leagues stronger than any other ego 22:33:33 <10PleasingFungus> without even considering knockback damage 22:33:49 <10PleasingFungus> unless you have a very low trigger % 22:34:00 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-612-g150a0467c1 (34) 22:34:40 <10PleasingFungus> i think it'd have to be somewhere in the low single digit %s for a normal ego to be 'balanced' vs others, and that might feel bad - it'd just almost never trigger when you wanted it to 22:34:44 windup time as a balancing tool might work, but if i had conrete ideas for this i'd have written it as a pr already 22:34:49 <10PleasingFungus> sure 22:35:32 concrete 22:36:00 <10PleasingFungus> my slush pile has > ‘Force lance’ that does force lance style knockback with impact damage (maybe just a chance?) 22:36:03 <10PleasingFungus> as an unrand idea 22:36:10 <10PleasingFungus> clearly i should implement this 22:36:25 i was thinking about writing a swap branch for lair that focuses on terrain-as-repositioning-effects 22:36:45 <10PleasingFungus> oh, interesting. what do you mean by "terrain as repositioning effects"? 22:36:50 you could put knockback as "bumper" tiles without a whole bunch of risk of things going sideways 22:37:12 except players wanting to kite things there for the whole rest of the game but piety and clocks should prevent that 22:37:21 uh 22:37:42 <10PleasingFungus> i mean, i'd be concerned both about players kiting a bunch within levels and between levels 22:37:49 <10PleasingFungus> i also don't quite understand what a bouncer tile does 22:37:54 <10PleasingFungus> is it a wall or a floor? 22:39:16 hold up i'm pulling up an old design doc, i had some thought on this 22:39:34 <10PleasingFungus> (in general, it's hard to add exciting tactical terrain in crawl because players have a ton of freedom to pick where they fight, so they can drag enemies away from dangerous terrain and into favorable terrain. portals and teleporter vaults can reduce this somewhat, as can any situation in which there's a real timer.) 22:39:37 <10PleasingFungus> 👍 22:40:05 so the idea here was to base a branch around temporary positional rulechanges themed as effects linked to tiles 22:40:28 i meant bumper, like, bumpers in a pinball machine, something that knocks actors back when they're adjacent 22:41:12 <10PleasingFungus> the idea is that, when an actor enters a space adjacent to this bumper, the bumper tries to knock them back (away from the bumper)? 22:41:39 yeah, something in that vein 22:41:58 in this branch it would be one of a bunch of tiles that do positional things 22:42:12 >dust clouds ? 22:42:13 which passively reduce LOS by 1 (as nightstalker, darkness, etc) 22:42:13 and are emplaced along inner walls of rooms 22:42:34 >possible alternate name for TRAP_TORCH: 22:42:35 "flashbug cage"? 22:42:35 ""Disturbing the flashbugs creates a piercing light."" <- (can't use "blinding" light here, cause of status effect) 22:42:49 >long grass, 22:42:49 which acts as a cloud of fog until an attack crosses it 22:42:50 (maybe they can burn, too? creating clouds of flame?) 22:42:57 sorry for channel spam, maybe i'll upload this as a gist 22:48:24 https://gist.github.com/Implojin/2dbba0ad1f2691e570e1767a6ab0a333 22:48:44 this is completely unorganized, the positional tile stuff begins a bit below the top 22:48:55 i'm too lazy to organize that into something readable 22:50:53 anyways the idea here is just to theme a branch around tiles-that-do-things 22:51:31 so that the player has to choose where to step as they're clearing it; maybe they want to drag a fight slightly this way or that way, maybe they don't want to stand wherever autoexplore dumped them 22:51:48 <10PleasingFungus> i like tiles that do things; i've wanted to add more for some time 22:51:59 <10PleasingFungus> my feeling is that you'd want to target this as a portal branch, rather than a lair swap 22:52:13 <10PleasingFungus> first because a portal branch is just a smaller project; second because, as noted, it makes it much harder for players to do a ton of luring 22:52:13 i guess it's similar to mechanical traps but less "this deals damage don't step here" 22:52:39 and more "this changes rules, do you want to step here?" 22:52:55 yes this would be lots of work 22:55:01 yeah, making it a temp portal would remove any incentive for players to drag things there later 22:55:18 you know what else would remove incentives to do that? making crawl one way ^ ^ 22:56:04 maybe hellmonk will oblige someday 22:58:09 <10PleasingFungus> maybe i will! 22:58:30 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/compare/master...great-magnetic-field 23:01:25 i mean, i'm down, but putting it in a gamemode risks people never quite realizing it exists like sprint 23:01:42 maybe that doesn't matter here though if it's focused as a thing for advanced players to enjoy 23:02:38 it might be nice to get some kind of pregame conducts options menu for things like that 23:03:03 but that's a whole other implementation can of worms 23:06:49 <10PleasingFungus> i think people do realize that sprint exists 23:06:52 <10PleasingFungus> i don't think that's an issue 23:07:06 <10PleasingFungus> i think the only issue with sprint is that it's borderline unmaintained and unexpanded 23:07:18 <10PleasingFungus> hard for folks to get that enthusiastic about something that hasn't seen new content in most of a decade 23:13:55 <10PleasingFungus> boy, unrands are really easy and fun to add. i should make more of these 23:14:11 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-613-gdd512c7efb: New early unrand: Force Lance 10(4 minutes ago, 7 files, 33+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dd512c7efb69 23:27:24 ok fine let me go see if my robe of victory unrand is still fresh enough that it can still merge cleanly 23:29:05 (if you want bad ideas as unrands, i have lots of them) 23:36:48 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-613-gdd512c7efb (34) 23:56:42 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-613-gdd512c7efb 23:57:13 New branch created: pull/2920 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2920 23:57:13 03Implojin02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2920 * 0.30-a0-614-gf5349cde68: New unrand: toga "Victory" 10(6 months ago, 8 files, 113+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f5349cde68a1