00:18:34 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-553-g7fabdf1491 (34) 00:54:26 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-553-g7fabdf1491 01:43:12 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 04:22:23 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 05:09:07 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-553-g7fabdf1 (34) 06:14:30 New branch created: pull/2899 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2899 06:14:30 03Antanishin, Ernest02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2899 * 0.30-a0-554-g270a4e8e3f: fix: local tiles sidebar height 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/270a4e8e3f4a 09:06:10 -!- cian_ is now known as cihancan 09:58:48 <10PleasingFungus> hm. iirc, we removed random plus rings (str+3, etc) from normal generation because they were annoying to id - having to pick up and put on each one to get a tiny upgrade 09:59:18 <10PleasingFungus> now that items id on step, should we reconsider? 10:01:19 <10PleasingFungus> not sure i’m super excited about finding str+2 rings again, but maybe there’s some potential 10:02:14 <10PleasingFungus> alternatively/tangentially, i wonder about making ev rings +5 instead of +4 - feels like they stack up poorly vs protect and dex rings 10:04:50 <12ebering> the id was part of it, the other part was that a +1 str ring was not that interesting 10:06:28 <10PleasingFungus> tbf, +1 was never possible iirc 10:06:35 <10PleasingFungus> but +2 also very bad 10:06:48 <10PleasingFungus> i wonder if a narrower range would be interesting 10:07:42 <10PleasingFungus> 4-6 for stats (and ev?), 3-5 for ac/slay 10:08:02 <10PleasingFungus> but i really don’t feel strongly about this 10:09:17 <10PleasingFungus> still not very interesting to upgrade from +4 str to +5 str, but maybe more interesting when choosing different ring types based on what you found thus far 10:09:25 <10PleasingFungus> (maybe) 10:13:18 <12ebering> I'm really unconvinced of the interesting decision of +4 vs +5 10:13:57 <12ebering> like, if I've id'd str rings already and I'm in a gauntlet or something the gamble for a +6 over my +4 or +5 ring isn't going to be a deciding factor 10:14:46 <10PleasingFungus> not what i meant 10:15:37 <10PleasingFungus> i’m talking about, do you wear ac or str? maybe that changes depending on the plus of the rings you found 10:15:45 <10PleasingFungus> but nbd, i’ll drop it 10:17:03 <10PleasingFungus> maybe more interested in buffing ev rings 11:45:55 New branch created: pull/2900 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2900 11:45:56 03pdpol02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2900 * 0.30-a0-554-gaa5b0780d7: fix: Make a flavor gimmick wand no_pickup 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aa5b0780d700 13:01:33 hello crawl dev channel i would like to offer my services as a pixel artist to the project 13:02:14 https://twitter.com/labyrinthslayer is an example of some of my art 13:04:36 New branch created: pull/2901 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2901 13:04:37 03Antanishin, Ernest02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2901 * 0.30-a0-554-g80b4dce933: fix: highscore line buffer length enlarged from 1300 to 1500. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/80b4dce93383 13:08:48 03nicolae02 07[nicolae-0722-misc-vaults] * 0.29-a0-826-g3a6d2cf594: Various fixes to various vaults 10(47 seconds ago, 3 files, 6+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a6d2cf59495 13:08:48 Branch pull/2601 updated to be equal with nicolae-0722-misc-vaults: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2601 13:17:57 <10PleasingFungus> superradish: feel free to offer contributions! you could try replacing some current tiles, adding tiles for mutations that don’t have any yet, or something else. happy to offer more details on how to find existing tiles, test changes in game, etc 13:18:37 <08nicolae> i will NEVER offer a contribution 13:19:41 <08nicolae> also why do my pull requests keep failing with weird build shit, this is on you people not me 😠 13:20:47 @pleasingfungus first order of business for me is making the draconian tiles not have a cartoonishly large head 13:21:00 if there's a wish list somewhere that'd help though 13:22:19 <08nicolae> i think "tiles for mutations that don't have any yet" is one of the more noticeable omissions, i've seen people comment on it 13:22:51 <10PleasingFungus> hm 13:23:04 <10PleasingFungus> i think someone already changed drac tiles quite recently 13:23:37 <08nicolae> yeah i think sastreii redid those 13:23:56 well i'll do a renditition and yall can offend someone by picking one or not :) 13:24:10 but uh... mutations list would work, i could definitely spit out some of those 13:24:10 <10PleasingFungus> i’d recommend looking at the current version first 13:24:17 also entire tilesets are on the table 13:24:27 i like doing tilesets. 13:24:48 there's a noticeable lack of bamboo forest in the game for example, which i already happen to have a tileset for 13:25:18 plus it'd be a fun mechanic, plants that grow back after a while! 13:25:49 i have the bleeding edge branch on my system i'll have to look at the art there, but is there any wishlist somewhere? or is it just whatever 13:26:13 <10PleasingFungus> as nicolae said, i think the main thing we'd like right now is the remaining mutations 13:26:23 <10PleasingFungus> since sastreii got partway through those and then ran out of time 13:26:51 <10PleasingFungus> whenever we add new monsters/spells/etc, we need new art for those, but development's slowed over the last few months so there's not much of a backlog there 13:27:12 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles in general you can poke around in rltiles to find our art 13:27:43 <10PleasingFungus> if you have a local version of the game downloaded, it'll have files called player.png, dngn.png etc - you can replace images there to see them in-game without having to learn how to recompile 13:27:59 <10PleasingFungus> but for inclusion in the game, tiles should be individual 32x32px transparent .png files 13:29:30 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/base/draconian.png new draconians look like this, btw (the other colours are in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/base/). we have female and male versions of most species, but we only have one gender of draconian after the rework. if you wanted to add an alternate gender of draconians, or more tile variations for 13:29:30 other species generally, that could be a fun project 13:29:52 <10PleasingFungus> (mostly it's only useful for offline players at present, but someday we're gonna add a ui for online players to cycle through player tiles. hopefully) 13:30:19 <08nicolae> tbf even if there's no new monsters, it's possible to change tiles just for cosmetics, so theoretically you could just re-tile a tree as "bamboo stalks" and so on. it's not the sort of thing we do a lot of but in small doses it can be nice 13:30:26 <10PleasingFungus> bamboo forest tiles sound fun. i'm not sure about adding a new regrowing bamboo mechanic, but -0 13:30:41 <10PleasingFungus> yes, what nicolae said. it could be good for vaults (special areas), etc 13:32:02 <10PleasingFungus> and yeah, generally alt versions of tiles can be neat, especially environmental tiles like walls, floors, etc 13:32:11 <10PleasingFungus> oh, actually, re wishlists 13:32:24 <08nicolae> also, an obscure thing: the mountain boots unrand has a tile for in your inventory/lying on the floor, but the tiles on the player doll are still the player doll tiles for the ancient removed unrand, the boots of the spider, which i used for testing. 13:32:24 04Build failed for 08nicolae-0722-misc-vaults @ 3a6d2cf5 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/3783248214 13:32:37 <08nicolae> you mother fucker. what did you do to my build. i'll kill you. 13:33:11 <10PleasingFungus> if you want to redo the tiles for cigotuvi's wizlab, there's a very old TODO to rework those 13:33:11 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1057033352806408282/image.png 13:33:28 <08nicolae> hell yeah, let's get some real fucked up cronenberg shit in cigotuvi's 13:33:47 <08nicolae> wizlabs are a good place for alternate tilesets, come to think of it 13:34:03 <10PleasingFungus> definitely 13:35:08 <08nlavsky> re: draconians with cartoonishly large heads. Player Dr tiles lost large heads in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a70db94c74, but monsters still have them 13:35:53 <08nlavsky> (so it might make sense to adjust monster tiles too) 13:37:48 jesus those are ugly 13:37:52 the wizlab ones 13:37:54 <10PleasingFungus> haha 13:37:57 <10PleasingFungus> yeah they're verrry old 13:38:04 is that floor supposed to be flesh 13:38:11 yeah snes games are old too but they look good 13:38:40 <08nicolae> it's all supposed to be flesh, i don't remember what area uses those floor tiles, i think either the abyss or the hell foyer 13:38:41 just gotta get someone with art sense on the project, count me in 13:38:55 <10PleasingFungus> # TO-DO: # # Actual portals need quite a bit of editing, and some unique tiles. # Tiles to fix: Doroklohe's plain floor, Cigotuvi's doorways, less generic # Iskenderun tiles, Cloud Mage's "white fluffiness" and "sea of clouds". 13:39:04 <08nicolae> i do have one request, admittedly: i like the fucked up teethy wall tiles there 13:39:06 <10PleasingFungus> turns out we did have a wishlist! 13:39:17 the teeth and eyes look ok 13:39:21 it's just the rest of the shit that needs work 13:39:26 noticeable lack of assholes and boobs too 13:39:38 <10PleasingFungus> # Cigotuvi has mastered the art of manipulating flesh, and his lab is a # living testament to this fact, seeming like the interior of some # ghastly beast. The walls and floor are slick and membranous, pulsing to an # unheard heartbeat and oozing thick, green ichor from every inch. 13:39:39 and random hands or legs 13:39:55 where's the green 13:40:08 <10PleasingFungus> yeah i feel like there was some disconnect between text and image here 13:40:11 yeah i can fix that 13:40:14 <10PleasingFungus> the floor tile is named floor_neres 13:40:17 <10PleasingFungus> er floor_nerves 13:40:17 <10PleasingFungus> typo 13:40:28 hm, should that be bloodspatter rather than part of the tile? 13:40:31 where's the 13:42:24 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da4adcc1d6c955a34a6ac09b9e05c39dd967955c tiles originally added here, for those curious 13:42:56 <10PleasingFungus> case BRANCH_INFERNO: case BRANCH_THE_PIT: case BRANCH_CAVERNS: 13:43:13 <09hellmonk> 2008 13:43:16 <09hellmonk> wow 13:44:57 <10PleasingFungus> 1d0f57cbceb778139ca215cc4fcfd1584951f6dd added the caverns, which were supposed to be filled with draconians, apparently. not clear they were ever enabled 13:45:06 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d0f57cbceb778139ca215cc4fcfd1584951f6dd 13:46:35 03hellmonk02 07[plasbad] * 0.30-a0-299-gc9d8db94d3: Various plasma beam fixups (pf) 10(3 minutes ago, 8 files, 56+ 55-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c9d8db94d346 13:46:41 <08nicolae> i remember some encompass vault mentioning "crystal caverns" or "radiant caverns" or something in a comment 13:46:42 <10PleasingFungus> plasma beam! we're metroid now 13:47:01 <10PleasingFungus> i believe that might be a reference to crawl light, a pre-dcss crawl variant 13:47:09 <10PleasingFungus> or it might just be the name of the weird D encompass 13:47:38 New branch created: pull/2902 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2902 13:47:38 Branch pull/2902 updated to be equal with plasbad: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2902 13:48:01 <09hellmonk> fixed most of the problems I think 13:48:06 <10PleasingFungus> zero idea what the deal with BRANCH_THE_PIT is - it might or might not have something to do with special rooms 13:48:14 <10PleasingFungus> want me to re-review? 13:48:24 <09hellmonk> if you like, not urgent 13:48:41 <08nicolae> might be, it sounds familiar, like something with a bunch of low level demons 13:48:47 <09hellmonk> I'm just going to keep working on other stuff in the meantime 13:49:03 <08nicolae> oh, yeah, i think there was a proposal for an early portal that gave 3s and 4s a shot 13:50:24 <09hellmonk> should just make some mid-late D vaults for that, I think there are a few already though 13:50:47 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, think that was consensus last time this came up 13:52:00 <06advil> I've noticed that in those days people would push incomplete stuff to trunk much more flagrantly as a placeholder 13:52:14 sorry i got cut off, where's the tiles in the source master on github 13:52:22 <06advil> probably players didn't play trunk nearly so much then 13:52:40 oh is it just the rtiles ? 13:52:41 <08nicolae> yeah i have that suggestion somewhere in my Files 13:53:29 <10PleasingFungus> yep, wander around rltiles. happy to give pointers to anything specific 13:53:43 <10PleasingFungus> rltiles/dngn has floors, walls, trees etc 13:53:47 ew they're all individual bmps 13:53:56 <10PleasingFungus> uh. not bmps 13:54:06 <10PleasingFungus> in modern crawl they’re pngs 13:54:14 <09hellmonk> anyway here's some shit from 5 months ago I forgor about 13:54:20 any way i could just do them all together 13:54:22 lol 13:54:22 <10PleasingFungus> we have a build script that bakes em into huge spritesheets 13:54:28 ah ok 13:54:58 New branch created: pull/2903 (4 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2903 13:54:58 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2903 * 0.29-a0-852-gceb8c5656b: feat: Library ghost vault 10(5 months ago, 1 file, 25+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ceb8c5656b5e 13:54:58 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2903 * 0.29-a0-853-g2a408fb847: feat: Two library overflows 10(5 months ago, 1 file, 64+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2a408fb847a4 13:54:58 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2903 * 0.29-a0-854-g8f156146ee: feat: Small library arrival vault 10(5 months ago, 1 file, 23+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8f156146ee6d 13:54:58 03hellmonk02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2903 * 0.29-a0-855-gc710b73d97: feat: Serial library vaults 10(5 months ago, 1 file, 572+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c710b73d97b4 13:55:00 <10PleasingFungus> if you compile or download a compiled version, you can see that 13:55:54 <08nicolae> oh yeah, those rule, i especially like the ghost vault 13:56:03 <10PleasingFungus> here's wall.png, for example 13:56:04 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1057039113821372476/wall.png 13:56:25 <10PleasingFungus> built from https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dngn/wall 13:56:51 alright i'll get started and see what i can do 13:57:44 <10PleasingFungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/gui/mutations mutation tiles are here, a list of all mutations is in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/mutations.txt and more details (eg # of levels of the muts) is in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mutation-data.h) 13:57:52 <10PleasingFungus> sure, sounds good! have fun, let us know if you have more questions 13:58:12 <10PleasingFungus> also fyi to other people - i'll probably merge Heavy soon if no one objects (probably with 200% damage instead of 175%) 13:59:55 <09hellmonk> how do the numbers on that compare to vorpal 14:00:23 <09hellmonk> it's 200% base damage only right? so like worse with slaying and aux and stuff? 14:00:33 my dumb ass changed computers without moving the links over 14:01:40 <08nlavsky> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ <--- check today's logs for links 14:03:51 <10PleasingFungus> yeah exactly 14:04:57 <10PleasingFungus> vorp is ~117% better post ac, current committed version of heavy is 175% more base dam & 150% more delay, so 117% better pre ac. better against ac and with a shield, worse with slay & auxes 14:05:32 <08nlavsky> an objection: Dark Maul should be Heavy because flavour! 14:06:40 <09hellmonk> yeah ok, thats where I started the numbers for my version too 14:07:43 <09hellmonk> the preac thing seems interesting, idk how much better that makes it overall 14:11:38 <03wheals> rather curious what the underlying reason for a hiscore line over 1300 characters long in #2901 is 14:17:00 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-554-ge4bbf75661: fix: quiet some gcc warnings (Aliscans) 10(61 seconds ago, 7 files, 9+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e4bbf7566134 14:17:53 <08nlavsky> if the goal is to have a ridiculous delay even at max skill, than an extra check for Dark Maul in weapon_adjust_delay() should be enough 14:18:55 <09hellmonk> give dark maul speed brand but make the base delay 45 14:19:07 <06advil> I just asked 14:19:08 <08nlavsky> (maybe even make the unrand Heavy*) 14:19:34 <10PleasingFungus> i don't really understand what you mean re an 'extra check in weapon_adjust_delay' 14:19:37 <10PleasingFungus> what would the formula be? 14:22:58 <08nlavsky> cpp const int heavy_factor = is_unrandom_artefact(*weapon, UNRAND_DARK_MAUL) ? 1 : 3; if (brand == SPWPN_HEAVY) return random ? div_rand_round(base * 3 * heavy_factor, 2) : (base * 3 * heavy_factor) / 2; 14:24:08 <10PleasingFungus> ...why not just say if (is_unrandom_artefact(weapon, UNRAND_DARK_MAUL)) base *= 3? but, anyway 14:24:42 04Build failed for 08plasbad @ c9d8db94 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/3783394165 14:25:06 <10PleasingFungus> even simpler than that would just be to play with BASE_DELAY in art-data.txt, right? doesn't seem like this extra multiplier does anything that doesn't, unless i'm missing something 14:26:31 <08nlavsky> my point is to make the unrand heavy because it fits its theme. the details are up to you 14:27:03 <10PleasingFungus> i care about theme a little, but i care about mechanics more 14:27:25 <06advil> @wheals looks like it is maxskills + fiteenskills, plus a relatively long vault name 14:27:35 <10PleasingFungus> the heavy brand multiplies the effect of weapon skill on delay, which is not really what i want for dark maul 14:27:47 <06advil> the seed being in these lines now also pushes it up but it is still over 1300 even without that 14:28:14 <03wheals> a little surprised we haven't seen that before, megazig games usually get to all maxed skills i thought 14:28:17 <10PleasingFungus> @??dark maul 14:28:17 <04Cerebot> Base accuracy: -2 Base damage: 52 Base attack delay: 3.0 | This weapon's minimum attack delay (1.6) is reached at skill level 28. | It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies. | This maul falls into the 'Maces & Flails' category. It is a two-handed weapon. 14:28:25 <06advil> it would only show up offline 14:28:34 <06advil> maybe megazig players are online usually 14:28:42 <03wheals> ah 14:28:49 <03wheals> bug reporting rate for offline players seems lower too 14:28:49 <06advil> it's just the hi score browser I believe 14:29:24 <03wheals> i thought it would be an issue for the hiscore view too (on the game over screen) 14:29:24 <06advil> without the seed it's 1308 so with a shorter vault name and a few other chars dropped, it would just make it 14:29:51 <06advil> hm, maybe, not sure if that has this interactive thing? 14:30:01 <06advil> easy to test 14:30:02 <03wheals> it does not 14:30:12 <03wheals> well, maybe webtiles does, i wouldn't know 14:32:07 <10PleasingFungus> right now it ranges between a delay of 3.0 and 1.65. if you want it to floor around the same place with heavy brand, its max delay would have to be 3.6... eh, maybe that's not so bad. maybe it could work 14:32:11 <10PleasingFungus> re dark maul 14:32:20 <10PleasingFungus> lemme poke it 14:32:45 <06advil> it shows up as 2. 0 ??Fi-00 nibbled to death by software bugs (D:$) but does not crash 14:33:23 <06advil> prob no one complains because it doesn't show a name 14:39:13 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-554-ge4bbf75661 (34) 14:42:45 <06advil> oh that char also ended the game in lichform, that's another 8 chars right there 14:51:38 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-555-gc8b2f71149: Replace Vorpal with Heavy (bitdizzy, hellmonk) 10(20 hours ago, 46 files, 188+ 170-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c8b2f71149d8 14:55:35 <08nlavsky> "Currently the only ones that keeping Heavy are Sniper and the Dark Maul (with some tweaking)", yay! 14:57:18 <10PleasingFungus> i was suaded 15:02:07 03Antanishin, Ernest02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-556-g0a0f5a245f: fix: highscore line buffer length enlarged from 1300 to 1500. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0a0f5a245f4f 15:02:39 <06advil> probably that code should be changed to not use a fixed length buffer at all, but that fix seems fine for now 15:10:07 Is that something we should just take? 15:11:39 (as in, if there's an actual buffer overflow there with Implications we'll take it now and I'll let bcadren/bhauth know) 15:13:40 <06advil> I don't think the buffer overflows, what seemed to be causing the crash is a parsing error because the line is truncated 15:13:50 <06advil> which probably also shouldn't be a crash 15:14:19 <06advil> looks safe: if (!fgets(inbuf, sizeof inbuf, scores)) 15:15:20 implies it's the line after the bad one that causes problems since it's getting the rest of the previous line 15:15:35 <06advil> yeah, probably 15:37:16 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-555-gc8b2f71149 (34) 15:40:41 <03wheals> crawl does use char buffers on the stack more often than a modern c++ program should, but mostly pretty safely 15:41:24 <03wheals> there used to be a global char buffer too! that probably can be traced directly back to the days of linley 15:49:58 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-556-g0a0f5a245f (34) 15:57:08 <06advil> xom still has two static char bufs 15:58:35 sounds appropriate 🙃 15:59:08 xom, the god of potential random core dumps 16:23:47 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-556-g0a0f5a245f (34) 16:48:01 has anyone thought about improving the UI for making equipment decisions? like what I talk about in https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/zvzlod/does_anyone_else_find_late_game_gear_optimization/ some thoughts I was 16:51:32 <10PleasingFungus> my experience is that most of my gear choices is not about resists but rather about ac, weapon type & enchantment, etc 16:51:42 it's something I want to work on but I haven't yet thought of a simple change to make this easier, that avoids UI overload 16:51:53 <10PleasingFungus> so i personally don't do a ton of swapping around. possibly others feel otherwise 16:52:10 <10PleasingFungus> could try asking in the general #dcss channel or in the roguelikes discord 16:52:30 <12ebering> something fancy seems better suited for scripting with clua 16:52:56 fancy is explicitly not the goal, because fancy implies making actual decisions 16:53:04 <10PleasingFungus> yeah, feels like something that'd be hugely player dependent. i doubt it's common that there's a 'pareto optimal' set of gear that isn't trivially obvious 16:55:36 obvious in retrospect, sure, but they're easy to miss if you aren't constantly thinking about them and thinking about the complete set of artifacts available to you 16:56:35 f 16:56:51 https://i.imgur.com/O7yC28X.png 16:57:05 let me know if i'm going overboard here 16:57:15 i can tone back the color resolution, for example 16:57:43 also still working on how i want to do the transitions between tiles, it needs to look like a tile but still organic enough to not be garbage 16:58:43 @nicolae what do you think, am i cronenburging it yet 17:00:42 still needs things like fingers bones and arms but hey 17:00:49 little balls of flesh is a start 17:02:00 (so this is a classic problem of exploring points in a high-dimensional space... and finding the highest-scoring one according to the player's utility function...) 17:03:47 well, except it's not supposed to look like balls of flesh, per the description earlier. "The walls and floor are slick and membranous" 17:04:45 i feel like some creative liberty needed to be taken because slick and membranous is another way of saying featureless and uninteresting 17:04:49 <10PleasingFungus> heh 17:04:56 besides you can have balls of flesh that are still membranous 17:05:08 there's no mention of eyes or teeth either 17:05:13 but the original source has those 17:05:29 <10PleasingFungus> vaguely suspect color contrast is a little high for walls, yeah, but it could be fun. might be helpful to set up a mockup, if that's not too much of a pain 17:05:53 yeah there's a big gradient right now while i work on the features 17:05:59 i kinda wanna make them less pink too 17:06:10 <10PleasingFungus> that's allowed 17:06:13 mockups are easy 17:06:18 <10PleasingFungus> i do think you shouldn't feel obliged to stick to the text description 17:06:27 <10PleasingFungus> take it as inspiration and a starting point, not a strict guide 17:06:30 <10PleasingFungus> nothing in game references it 17:06:32 i figured cronenburg is a good guideline 17:06:41 random bones or limbs, a single large tooth 17:06:43 that kind of garbage 17:16:20 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-557-ge2afbf3030: Increase steam breath cooldown 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e2afbf3030d4 17:30:57 <08nlavsky> you.duration[DUR_BREATH_WEAPON] /= 2; for steam breath comes from 673bdae75485d14 ("Initial revision") 17:32:09 perhaps my data scientists followers will help haha https://twitter.com/zcatern/status/1607534472664072194 17:34:12 (I should actually just write the code to calculate the list of pareto-optimal gear configurations, and see how many there are by the typical endgame) 17:34:48 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-557-ge2afbf3030 (34) 17:35:06 (it might be easier and actually useful if you can set constraints like maximum encumbrance rating) 17:35:42 (or weapon type etc. actually if you had those constraints maybe you literally could just pick from the list of Pareto-optimal gear configurations, maybe it would be short enough) 17:38:26 I have to admit that every time I look at the definition of Pareto optimality I wonder if it has any real world use or is just a theoretical point in probability space 17:39:55 (often the examples of Pareto optimality seem very nonoptimal from a practical perspective…) 17:40:37 well every time you replace a +0 cloak with a +1 cloak you are making a Pareto improvement so it's pretty useful yes 17:41:57 we have auto-explore and auto-fight, now for auto-Pareto-improve-my-equipment :) 17:42:31 my feel for that particular example is that the +1 has a separate chance to fire and works out to <1 ~ 0 practically. which is to say, I trust pluses rather less than base rating these days 17:42:48 high pluses can override as they're more likely to have practical effects 17:43:59 1 free AC is 1 free AC ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 17:44:19 there's a reason I said cloak 18:39:20 small update because it's too funny not to share: I asked my decision support consultant friend if she has any ideas and she told me she loves DCSS and is now thinking about the question furiously 18:39:45 so don't worry devteam we will produce a SOTA amazing interface for gear decisions :) 18:42:34 <09hellmonk> pog 18:43:52 whose dick do i have to suck to make jivya worship not result in things eating everything not nailed down 18:44:38 because damn getting him from an unknown altar on level 1 is both fun and frustrating beyond belief 18:44:41 jiyva's 18:57:58 pretty sure there's a jiyva random name about that 18:58:02 superradish1: language like that isn't at all appropriate for this channel. This channel for discussing development in a respectful and adult way, it's not a gamer chat room 19:06:37 oh, ok sorry 19:17:43 anyway like before when you gained piety for the jellies eating it made since 19:17:46 now it kinda doesn't 19:17:51 unless it never did and i'm making that up 19:23:19 here's a good idea, show EV change on the armor description: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/zvzlod/does_anyone_else_find_late_game_gear_optimization/j1soich/ 19:25:41 <10PleasingFungus> that’d be good, it’s just a huge pain 19:25:59 <10PleasingFungus> for example, think about implementing it for lear’s hauberk 19:32:29 <10PleasingFungus> superradish1: before you ask to remove something, ask: what purpose does this serve? why was this added to begin with? 19:34:28 well, originally the purpose was to gain piety with the god 19:34:32 again, unless i'm wrong 19:35:26 finally the purpose it serves is basic sense: what changes when you worship jivya that makes them function differently than they did before? no other god behaves this way 19:35:44 you could argue fedhas with the plants but that is also achieved by making jellies nonviolent 19:36:44 so unless you're getting piety for them eating stuff the only purpose it serves is making runs more difficult by getting rid of stuff before you can even find it 19:36:44 <10PleasingFungus> no, that’s backwards 19:37:13 <10PleasingFungus> the player wanted jellies to eat things to gain piety. however, we are designers, not players 19:37:23 <10PleasingFungus> or at least we are wearing out developer hats 19:37:57 <10PleasingFungus> as developers, why did we choose to make jiyva eat floor items? both in the old system and now 19:38:16 well, in the old system you'd worship him, clean out a floor, summon jellies, and they'd clean it up 19:38:19 <10PleasingFungus> this is something we intentionally retained, so there must be a reason 19:38:21 that's how i remember it 19:38:41 i dunno there's weird choices all over the place 19:38:42 That's not how it was; jelly spawning has always been largely involuntary 19:38:48 ^ 19:39:03 and I don't believe the rate changed with the piety change 19:39:04 you got piety, hp, and mp originally from it iirc 19:39:15 (and food) 19:39:23 right, that too 19:39:29 some things don't make sense that are in the game or still in the game 19:39:36 shops selling rocks, for example 19:39:42 -!- superradish1 is now known as superradish 19:40:59 but the point both then and now was actually a flavor one: you worship jiyva, you are now a jelly at least by proxy 19:41:02 demonspawn 10% of the time getting 3 level 1 slots and no level 2 slots, which from a design standpoint is removing extra body slots with no real return other than auxiliary attacks 19:41:46 you're not supposed to want that gear any more, jiyva provides you-the-jelly with what you need 19:42:20 at least, that's how I've always undersatood the jiyva playstyle 19:42:43 well, that'd require more on-demand abilities to make up for lost scrolls and potions 19:42:53 or piety / mutation gain when those things get mulched 19:47:04 Jiyva is quite strong as-is though 19:48:30 your piety gain is extremely high; almost certainly higher in total than when it was piety-by-munch rather than be exploration 19:48:34 choices made solely for flavor also hold a thin argument when races are removed because they don't provide anything different from another race that does the same thing and also because we like the number 27 19:49:48 the arbitrary flavor axe should swing both ways, really 19:50:33 <10PleasingFungus> i strongly agree re flavour! luckily, that’s not the reason 19:51:27 flavor was probably the wrong word, since in crawl terms oit usually means something that isn't significant to playstyle — but this is all about playstyle 19:51:40 <10PleasingFungus> j’s item eating conduct is a very major mechanical balance mechanism and playstyle differentiator. a j game will feel very different from games with other gods, because you have fewer items and because you’re encouraged to move fast to get items before they’re eaten 19:52:04 Jiyva is designed with a conduct of exploring quickly in mind. You have to outrace your jellies to stuff, but are given huge regen to make that feasible 19:52:14 <10PleasingFungus> ^ 19:53:03 and you still lose some items as a result- but your active abilities and mutation gifts make you powerful enough to overcome that 19:53:05 <10PleasingFungus> if you removed it, the god would feel less distinctive and less fun. it’d also be harder to balance an early jiyva find - it’s still quite strong to get early j now, but missing early items mitigates that somewhat 19:53:32 fair points, consider my mind changed 19:53:52 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 19:54:00 <10PleasingFungus> ty for being open minded! 19:58:48 i'm still quite certain the monstrous demonspawn mutation is weaker with no advantageous tradeoff 19:59:01 it'd make more sense if there were a lot more tier 1 mutations 19:59:23 wings, amphibiousness, some weird shit that lets you worship good gods and be immune to / wield holy wrath brands 20:00:00 <10PleasingFungus> monstrous demonspawn is troll with better apts and gear options 20:00:51 and no regen or huge stone throwing 20:08:25 well, if you get claws 3 quickly that's true 20:09:06 I don't think it's wrong to call monstrous ds considerably worse than standard ds 20:15:38 no wings or mermaid tail mutation though, that's just a shame 20:15:56 extra arm(s) 20:16:04 lots of low hanging fruit there 20:16:28 long tongue! that'd be a good one for tier one 20:38:07 <08wormsofcan> the only difference between monstrous and regular demonspawn is that the scales mutation is exchanged with two extra body slot auxes 20:38:10 <08wormsofcan> all the body slot mutations except antennae are slaying bonuses, so it's generally better unless your build doesn't use slaying at all 20:38:35 <08wormsofcan> and antennae is a weaker version of ashenzari's monster detection which is still pretty good 20:38:43 slaying? 20:38:53 so what if i use a dagger the dagger gets a bonus to damage with claws? 20:39:08 <08wormsofcan> no, you'd just use unarmed 20:39:39 all the body slot muts also ban a slot 20:39:52 <08wormsofcan> yeah, that's just AC, and requires you to have an item for that slot 20:40:36 <08wormsofcan> rings of slaying also take up a slot that could have been used for a ring of protection but neither item is strictly better 20:41:16 Sure, but I think the AC is more valuable than the aux attack- particularly since categorizing them as slaying isn't really correct 20:42:27 <08wormsofcan> I categorize them as slaying because they're damage that triggers on melee attacks 20:43:29 I think the distinction is important, since they don't help you get through AC or EV outside of like, qblade and pretend your horns are your main weapon 20:47:45 the probably 3 AC and possibly extra artefact boons from the slot are at least comprably valuable to the aux attack- Monstrous is questionably better than just having an empty scales slot 20:47:50 <08wormsofcan> they do help you get through AC and EV by giving you additional damage rolls unless you're saying the same AC/EV rolls apply to both effects 20:48:46 I mean they do very little to help against high AC/EV enemies. 20:49:50 They do give additional damage rolls, but those will be considerably lower in both damage and accuracy than your weapon 20:54:06 <08wormsofcan> that doesn't make it worse than slaying though 20:54:31 <08wormsofcan> maybe it's worse than slaying if we're comparing specific numbers 20:54:53 I don't think there's a single aux that I would consider comprable to +3 slaying 20:55:42 maybe early on, but not by depths 20:56:13 actually that's a lie constrict is good, but not relevant to the discussion 20:56:30 <10PleasingFungus> most of the game is pre depths 20:56:45 <10PleasingFungus> and i’m really unsure how many high ac enemies there are even there 20:57:10 <08wormsofcan> VS bites are pretty good 20:57:34 Also true, and not relevant 20:57:36 <08wormsofcan> I think auxes are 5 base damage minimum so if you have two slots that's pretty good, especially early 20:59:04 <06advil> VS bite is an aux 21:00:52 Ok I don't think there's a single aux that DS can get that I would consider comprable to +3 slaying 21:03:08 point being the DS monstrous mutation is not a good thing, and while i get there's a certain randomness implied for the race... going from "fun" to nearly unplayable on a die roll is kinda bad 21:03:50 that's definitely hyperbole, even if I agree with the thesis 21:04:01 well yeah 21:04:07 hyperbole illustrates points quite well 21:04:22 ok so code / interaction question 21:05:10 on axe cleaving and wu jian council - if you take a step do the free attacks from moving you get from wu jian get cleaving applied to them? 21:09:50 Horns 3 is 14 base dam; since weapon skill is not applied you can realistically get this to a ~d21 * (1 + 0-.66); roughly equivalent to d21 + d14 21:11:09 <08wormsofcan> ran some fsims on a lvl 1 human fighter and two level 1 aux mutations are at least as good as +3 slaying 21:11:14 That probably is better than +3 slay. 21:11:32 <08wormsofcan> against a stone giant you get comparable numbers and against a yak you get better numbers 21:11:40 yeah but slaying is applied to every weapon attack, horns attacks don't happen every time you attack 21:12:06 is that factored in somehow 21:12:10 <08wormsofcan> yes 21:12:12 in the fsim it is 21:12:22 in my numbers only by eyeballing it 21:13:14 <08wormsofcan> also keep in mind that aux attacks are seperately affected by actual slaying bonuses 21:13:22 that is true 21:14:01 The reason I used +3 slay btw is there are scales with +3 slay +3 AC, and slay vs '''slay''' is a much easier comparison than slay vs AC 21:14:49 the +slay scales don't provide AC 21:14:58 afaik 21:15:04 now i have to look 21:15:20 they definitely do 21:15:24 oh yes they do 21:15:45 yeah those are fun 22:07:02 What would you use to pass messages as parameters? 22:18:02 nvm the answer is stop being lazy 22:31:53 why doesn't the wiki have math on how much weapons do for damage with skill level increase anywhere 22:32:24 i know this isn't the place to ask that but it's kind of a "where do i find weapon damage in the code" question too 22:38:21 weapon damage wiki page 22:47:00 <10PleasingFungus> fight.cc has some logic 22:47:11 <10PleasingFungus> also attack.cc and describe.cc