00:14:47 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-424-g7412bad402 (34) 00:54:27 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-424-g7412bad402 01:39:24 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 04:23:17 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4850-gd9e8576752 05:06:37 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-424-g7412bad (34) 07:00:23 <06advil> it doesn't seem to be documented how catch2.hpp was generated? 07:00:42 <06advil> %git a901c2c2c741e61ee 07:00:43 <04Cerebot> reaverb * 0.25-a0-311-ga901c2c2c7: Integrate catch2 testing framework into crawl. (3 years ago, 11 files, 17804+ 65-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a901c2c2c741 07:01:31 <06advil> not sure if reaverb is around much these days 07:20:17 <06advil> heh, current catch2 doesn't support c++11 07:59:46 <10PleasingFungus> i wonder if we could remove weapon base acc and play with acc formulae to make players a lil more accurate earlier and less later (as comp) 08:00:23 <10PleasingFungus> might avoid something that misleads new players? advice givers always say ‘ignore base acc’… vaguely wonder how correct that advice is 08:18:01 Now that you display the hit chance on inspecting a monster it's hard to see that can be _very_ misleading 08:33:26 <10PleasingFungus> mm, i suppose i don’t think weapon accuracy is a rich design space 08:34:44 I've been under the impression the only time it matters is stabbing? 08:37:28 <10PleasingFungus> huh? acc interacts with stabbing? 08:37:37 <10PleasingFungus> !source attack.cc 08:37:38 <04Cerebot> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/attack.cc 08:38:31 <10PleasingFungus> don’t think it does..? 08:38:33 well, kinda other way around, stabbing increases accuracy? 08:38:40 <10PleasingFungus> mm 08:39:01 <10PleasingFungus> re weapon base acc 08:39:50 <10PleasingFungus> i’m not sure how meaningful current weapon acc is, and i’m not sure pushing it further would be fun - very high acc is predictable, very low acc feels bad 08:40:10 <10PleasingFungus> so that’s why i wonder about cutting it and adjusting acc formulae as needed 08:40:30 <10PleasingFungus> re misleading players 08:40:30 I've never found it meaningful 08:41:00 <10PleasingFungus> one thing i see people frequently saying is oh, i can’t use that d2 exec axe or i’ll miss everything 08:41:28 <10PleasingFungus> which i don’t think is true? just people assuming without checking acc numbers, or going by vibe? 08:41:35 <10PleasingFungus> but i could be wrong 08:42:26 Base acc could be displayed alongside an average of the other accuracy components to provide context 08:43:19 <10PleasingFungus> we could, and i’ve considered that, but it’d be nice if we didn’t have to 08:43:46 <10PleasingFungus> like, if it makes the game better for different weapon types to have different accuracy, then let’s support that 08:44:22 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-425-g523d8b781c: fix: improve c++14 support 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/523d8b781cb2 08:44:22 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-426-g90188ab0ba: build: update catch2 10(10 minutes ago, 22 files, 23038+ 17625-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/90188ab0ba93 08:44:22 <10PleasingFungus> but if it’s just noise, numbers for the sake of numbers, why keep it around? 08:44:38 <10PleasingFungus> it’s not like a triceratops or something. it’s not something that brings players joy. 08:44:44 <10PleasingFungus> it’s just a stat. 08:45:15 The Triceratops will bring _me_ joy when it kills someone er 08:45:35 I guess, I'm not saying "don't do it", just thinking about alternatives 08:48:28 <09hellmonk> Add a quadceratops 08:49:10 <06advil> low level exec axe vs hand axe is 44% vs 61% in a very quick fsim, I'm sure that that feels even bigger because of the difference in delay (even though in this test aveffdam for the exec axe was higher) 08:49:33 aveffdam> not sure how big the overkill factor is 08:50:02 <06advil> not very 08:50:42 <06advil> 2 vs 0.8, this is xl 3 with axes 5 08:51:55 <10PleasingFungus> ty advil! 08:52:54 <10PleasingFungus> i guess i wonder if, if it’s right to use the big weapon anyway, is it a problem for the big weapon to be better? 08:53:17 <10PleasingFungus> maybe that’s the wrong question 08:56:53 <06advil> lol, catch_amalgamated fails checkwhite 08:57:05 <06advil> there must be an exception list for that script somewhere 08:59:04 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-427-gf926380dec: build: update checkwhite for catch2 v3 10(37 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f926380dec47 09:17:41 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-426-g90188ab0ba (34) 09:32:46 04Build failed for 08master @ f926380d 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/3658847022 09:34:06 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-427-gf926380dec (34) 09:36:07 <06advil> 🙃 09:37:37 04Build failed for 08master @ 90188ab0 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/3658745858 09:43:15 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-428-g5d0fae5569: build: ignore catch2 in unbrace 10(84 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5d0fae55698c 09:49:43 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-428-g5d0fae5569 (34) 13:53:41 03Nikolai Lavsky02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-429-g6319d2f74e: feat: grey out useless items on the action panel 10(3 days ago, 3 files, 19+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6319d2f74e30 13:53:41 03Nikolai Lavsky02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-430-g77163bc473: fix: add more uselessness checks for consumables 10(3 days ago, 2 files, 32+ 23-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/77163bc4736a 13:53:41 03Nikolai Lavsky02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-431-g41561af1f8: fix: improve handling of ?poison and ?fog under Still Winds 10(3 days ago, 2 files, 6+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/41561af1f815 13:59:40 <06advil> fr: expand cannot_read_item_reason to every item type covered in is_useless_item 14:14:43 03Alex02 {sashashura} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2868 * 0.30-a0-432-gdb2e0bf6d1: build: harden ci.yml permissions 10(27 hours ago, 1 file, 28+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db2e0bf6d187 14:18:56 03Duong Hoang02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-432-g1e1ebe7c07: fix: a few css issues 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1e1ebe7c0743 14:19:45 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-431-g41561af1f8 (34) 14:25:16 03Benjamin S Wolf02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-433-geb60c0892e: Remove defunct and completed todo 10(5 weeks ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/eb60c0892e64 14:33:51 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-433-geb60c0892e (34) 14:45:44 <06advil> sometimes wish we had a revise & resubmit category for PRs 14:45:54 <06advil> or like, reject with a possibility of resubmission 14:51:36 03Roadster Tracker02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-434-g5004eecd7a: Don't care about exploring the edge tiles 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5004eecd7a08 14:51:36 03Roadster Tracker02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-435-ge848bf14ca: Shrinks the size of chequers_temple_sunken 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 50+ 52-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e848bf14ca89 14:52:39 03bfaires02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-436-g76bb9edea9: Fix int params to crawl.sendkeys() 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/76bb9edea9c8 14:53:43 03Perry Fraser02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-437-gbbba3d4eb4: Don't crash when generating slings for ?acqs 10(5 weeks ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bbba3d4eb407 14:53:43 03Perry Fraser02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-438-g37d5509b11: Add asserts for valid weapon subtypes for ?acqs. 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/37d5509b115a 14:56:53 03pdpol02 {advil} 07* 0.30-a0-439-g9e77e4d916: fix: adjust monser placement in wad_wood_setup. 10(8 weeks ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9e77e4d9165b 15:04:04 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-439-g9e77e4d916 (34) 15:26:53 <06advil> just doing some brutal old pr culling 15:27:01 <06advil> maybe we should run one of those bots 15:27:15 <06advil> almost anything that is 2+ years old is not going to merge easily anyways 15:32:45 <06advil> @hellmonk as a wizlab expert, any thoughts on https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/732 ? 15:32:54 <06advil> now standing as the oldest PR 15:33:34 <09hellmonk> It seemed reasonable to me but I think ebering or maybe gammafunk had a pitch to rework it in a different way 15:33:41 <06advil> I can't really even tell if that PR is done 15:35:16 <06advil> we should maybe either finally merge or just close it 15:47:47 <09gammafunk> hrm, yeah, I don't really like the approach of the PR since it doesn't fix the underlying problems, but I'm probably not going to have time to rework it in the near term. I think it's probably safe to just close that particular PR as it's pretty out of date by now. I see commits related to the hellbinder wizlab, for example. 15:48:33 <09gammafunk> That said, someone could probably to a quicker pass to making the wizlab harder and take some elements of what this PR is doing 15:49:50 <09gammafunk> maybe it's actually easy to extract the useful parts of it compared to anything that's out of date 16:02:00 <09gammafunk> will try to get a review in of that pdpol pr tonight 16:02:25 <09gammafunk> that would leave the nicolae vault batch which I've partially reviewed and need to finish 16:03:24 <09gammafunk> and I see 2773, the author and I talked about that in the discord, will have to see what the current state of things looks like 16:04:11 <09gammafunk> hellmonk has a depths encompass that needs another set of eyes too. I'll take a like, but if you feel like looking too @nicolae , would help: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2666 16:04:46 <09gammafunk> and for 2632 I think that's just waiting on nicolae 16:05:39 <09gammafunk> ah and 2616, so we have a few vault prs waiting 16:25:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-439-g9e77e4d916 (34) 16:41:40 <|amethyst> btw, jhust sent a new message to (the most recent address I had for) the mailing list. It came from my work address rather than my (now-obsolete) personal address, so please let me know and/or forward it if it didn't get through 16:44:29 <|amethyst> Also, whoever has the privileges, please update my delivery address to neil@cs.uky.edu, since I can't send for my s-z.org address at the moment 16:46:02 <|amethyst> s/for my/from my 16:51:23 <09bh> I received it 16:51:44 <|amethyst> I approved it, and also I think I managed to CHANGE my address 16:52:00 <|amethyst> s/change/change/i 16:53:46 <|amethyst> bh: Thanks! 17:00:48 <|amethyst> Also, completely unrelated: My wife woke up yesterday and logged into Steam only to be recommended Dwarf Fortress. That was, according to her, the game she least expected to appear on her Steam feed 17:01:30 <|amethyst> I know we'd have quite a bit more to do to manage a Steam release, but we should at leat consider it 17:02:10 <|amethyst> No idea, though, how that would manage $0 with no in-app purchases 17:04:13 <|amethyst> I assume it doesn't have the same licensing issues as the Apple Store, but I haven't looked into it 17:15:05 <05kate> i think free games with no in-app purchases or anything do exist on steam, so that's not necessarily a blocker. i remember we did look into it in the extremely distant past (we had a wip steam greenlight page at one point back when steam greenlight was a thing that existed). and there might have been some licensing issues with using some kinds of steam integrations or something? (but we could just not use those, i don't think it was the 17:15:05 same level of issue as the apple store) 17:15:50 <10PleasingFungus> yeah steam launches definitely don’t require integration 17:20:03 <|amethyst> I had thought you had to at least add achievements, but it's entirely possible I'm mistaken. Either way, I'll point out: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/xfwlfq 17:38:17 <09hellmonk> cheevos good 17:50:12 <|amethyst> hellmonk: Give us your cheevo code then! 18:06:13 <08nicolae> noted. i'll try to fit vaults stuff in this weekend 18:06:31 <08nicolae> agh. i have so much stuff i want to do this weekend 18:06:44 <08nicolae> you don't have to worry about burning the candle at both ends if you just dunk the whole thing in lava all at once 18:13:38 <|amethyst> when the cnalde is dunked in the lava: destroy the candle, and begin the ritual 18:13:48 <|amethyst> 18:14:03 <|amethyst> s/cnadle/candle/ 18:19:15 <|amethyst> (seriously, though, I want to put together a presentation on Inform 7 for my departmental talk; and suugestions appreciated) 18:19:34 <|amethyst> s/and suu/any su 18:20:47 <09gammafunk> dcss needs more candelabrums 18:25:13 <|amethyst> even more cnadleabrums 19:04:30 <10PleasingFungus> |amethyst: no, many games launch on steam with no cheevos 19:04:58 <10PleasingFungus> someone probably needs to put down a hundo to get a steam game id 19:05:26 <10PleasingFungus> and then set up a million logos in different sizes and aspect ratios ;_; 19:05:37 <10PleasingFungus> but there’s not much to it beyond that 19:22:22 <08nicolae> i can chip in three nickels and a paperclip 19:37:55 <06advil> |amethyst: you did succeed at changing your address, I also updated it in the list admin spot 19:38:33 <06advil> my concern with a steam release is that I am not sure we're up to the quality and especially support expectations that would raise 19:39:02 <10PleasingFungus> think expectations are a bit lower for free games 19:39:29 <06advil> for dwarf fortress, the backstory is that they had been living off it more or less, but had a bunch of unexpected medical bills, and the steam release was an attempt to make their revenue more sustainable. The stuff that the steam release adds was contracted out and done by a pretty well known indie studio 19:43:09 <10PleasingFungus> sure 19:43:24 <10PleasingFungus> definitely a different case from us 19:44:13 <06advil> I'm sort of envisioning variants of WhY DoNT yOU HaVE INgaME prEFERence EdiTING on repeat x10000 in the steam forums tbh 19:46:59 Well, since you mention it, NetHack has done it all century :-) 19:48:48 <10PleasingFungus> imagine caring about steam forums 19:48:58 <10PleasingFungus> i already ignore so many forums 19:49:11 <10PleasingFungus> SA, 4chan… 19:49:27 <10PleasingFungus> i’m also really not convinced players will care that much 19:49:44 <10PleasingFungus> i think in game option editing is something they’d like if they had it 19:50:02 <10PleasingFungus> but i’m not convinced the absence of it bothers non devs 19:50:06 <10PleasingFungus> if that makes sense 19:50:44 I mean, slightly more seriously, with my player hat on - it is the one respect in which NetHack's interface is obviously ahead of DCSS's, and it's definitely nice to have. 19:51:00 <06advil> well, I'm specifically thinking of a recent reddit thread, https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/z9kew8/some_of_my_problems_with_dcss/ 19:51:34 <06advil> which seems pretty on point 19:52:02 <10PleasingFungus> that’s fair, but that’s the first time i remember seeing that complaint in almost a decade of devving 19:52:11 <10PleasingFungus> feels like recency bias 19:52:13 <06advil> hm 19:52:15 Point 5 is kind of offpoint 19:52:34 <06advil> by "on point" I don't mean right 19:52:55 <10PleasingFungus> relevant to the feedback from a hypothetical steam release 19:57:53 <09gammafunk> not sure what updating the steam release entails 19:58:49 <09gammafunk> also not sure how ownership of the release works; whoever would put up the money would presumably be the owner for perpetuity? unless you can share ownership in some way 20:00:10 <09gammafunk> obviously a whole bunch of dcss things are owned by individuals, but the important central aspects of the project have some form of shared ownership or at least shared access 20:00:39 <09gammafunk> vaguely thinking of how we have the old sourceforge release page that's now fallen out of date and I'm not sure if anyone is around with access to it 20:01:08 <09gammafunk> probably this wouldn't happen with steam since it'd be a notable front-end to the game and not an abandoned development platform like sourceforge 20:03:35 <08wormsofcan> what's the ideal deadline to get the christmas tiles in btw 20:03:40 <08wormsofcan> got a few things I want to make 20:03:41 <09gammafunk> think it's right that we'd not really have to care especially much about the steam forum and steam-related comments, but might be a useful source of feedback 20:04:41 <09gammafunk> don't really have too much of a deadline since it'd be trunk-only and servers update trunk daily 20:05:24 <09gammafunk> although if your tiles require some code support you want to either make that yourself or ask someone sufficiently early that they can do it 20:06:47 <10PleasingFungus> updating a steam release is quite straightforward - you run a lil script that throws the files at steam's servers, then you click a button in the steam ui and it updates more or less immediately 20:08:37 <10PleasingFungus> my feeling is that the owner would create a steam account for the purpose (i think we already have one, actually), would share credentials in #crawl-private, and that some person or set of persons would pony up the hundo out of the goodness of their souls 20:08:58 <10PleasingFungus> i'm not over the moon about this project but i think it'd be quite doable 20:13:50 <09gammafunk> Thanks for summary. Seems reasonable at a basic level. advil's probably right that we'll probably feel at least some grief at some point on account of some steam commentary, but it's not too hard to go looking for aggrieved people wrt dcss 20:13:53 <12ebering> can't we just write gaben a polite note and get the hundo waived 20:14:04 <12ebering> being a classic brand he'd love to bring to the platform /s 20:14:18 <10PleasingFungus> honestly i can pay the hundo if we'll really do it, it's not a big thing 20:14:28 <09gammafunk> we need octopode mike to pull some strings for us obviously 20:14:36 New branch created: pull/2869 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2869 20:14:36 03Zhang Kai02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2869 * 0.30-a0-440-g255856b5a8: Update gods.txt 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 94+ 112-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/255856b5a8af 20:14:37 <10PleasingFungus> octopode mike works for a competitor! 20:14:49 <10PleasingFungus> i just have no desire to do the fiddly stuff, all the logos and so on 20:14:50 <09gammafunk> right, he would launch a digital strike on valve 20:14:56 <10PleasingFungus> so much cropping and resizing 20:16:12 <09gammafunk> yeah, I'm not great for that kind of thing either; prospect of having a bunch of other stuff like that to regularly update was my big concern, so that we don't have too much extra release burder. But this sounds like stuff that would need to be done once 20:16:18 <09gammafunk> or at least very infrequently 20:16:33 <12ebering> as a currently absentee dev I'm neutral on steam and can be relied on for 0.0 units of effort on the project 20:17:20 <09gammafunk> at least as a dev you've moved to fixed point for units of effort away from full floating point, wise move 20:17:25 <10PleasingFungus> lemme show off what i mean re release burden 20:18:58 <10PleasingFungus> "appbuild" { "appid" "1276070" "desc" "Default build" // description for this build "buildoutput" "..\output\" // build output folder for .log, .csm & .csd files, relative to location of this file "contentroot" "..\..\builds\" // root content folder, relative to location of this file "setlive" "" // branch to set live after successful build, none if empty "preview" "0" // to 20:18:59 enable preview builds "local" "" // set to flie path of local content server "depots" { "1276071" "depot_build_1276071.vdf" "1276072" "depot_build_1276072.vdf" } } you'd have one app_build script, which looks like this 20:19:33 <10PleasingFungus> then you'd have one depot_build script per platform (windows, linux, macos). those would look like this "DepotBuildConfig" { // Set your assigned depot ID here "DepotID" "1276071" // include all files recursivley "FileMapping" { // This can be a full path, or a path relative to ContentRoot "LocalPath" "OSX\*" // This is a path relative to the install folder of your game 20:19:33 "DepotPath" "." // If LocalPath contains wildcards, setting this means that all // matching files within subdirectories of LocalPath will also // be included. "recursive" "1" } // but exclude all symbol files // This can be a full path, or a path relative to ContentRoot "FileExclusion" ".DS_Store" } 20:19:39 <10PleasingFungus> sorry for irc folks by the way 20:19:48 <10PleasingFungus> this is probably pretty noisy on the other end of the relay 20:19:57 <09gammafunk> let them eat ascii cake 20:20:17 <10PleasingFungus> then you'd go putz around in a web ui that looks like this 20:20:18 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1050975212851707904/image.png 20:20:27 <10PleasingFungus> and go ahead and set the newest build to active for the default branch 20:20:56 <10PleasingFungus> possible that you could do that in the same step with setlive, but i vaguely think you're not allowed to do that for the default branch? we could experiment 20:21:30 <10PleasingFungus> oh, also, you gotta go through the steam CLI tool to run those build scripts 20:22:27 <10PleasingFungus> ./steamcmd.sh Steam Console Client (c) Valve Corporation - version 1666144101 -- type 'quit' to exit -- Loading Steam API...OK Steam>login hunter2 Logging in user '' to Steam Public...OK Waiting for client config...OK Waiting for user info...OK Steam>run_app_build "/Users/nick/src/mft3/steam/scripts/app_build_1276070.vdf" [2022-11-14 21:10:35]: Starting AppID 1276070 build (flags 0x0). ... 20:26:04 <10PleasingFungus> https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SteamCMD#Downloading_SteamCMD has instructions for how to set that up - does look like it's available on linux as well as win/mac (might even be easier on linux than on mac...) 20:30:18 <08wormsofcan> it should be straightforward to write a script that takes one large image and generates all the relevant icons 20:30:46 <08wormsofcan> just need the list of sizes 20:59:27 <10PleasingFungus> https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/assets has the list 20:59:50 <10PleasingFungus> o! o! how i hate thee... from hell's heart i stab at thee! 20:59:51 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1050985167726051389/image.png 20:59:51 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1050985168099352606/image.png 21:00:11 <10PleasingFungus> oops these too 21:00:11 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1050985252589416448/image.png 21:10:16 New branch created: pull/2870 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2870 21:10:16 03Zhang Kai02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2870 * 0.30-a0-440-gd18a210072: Update ability.txt 10(73 seconds ago, 1 file, 6+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d18a21007286 23:34:58 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-439-g9e77e4d916 (34) 23:47:19 <08wormsofcan> those are some... interesting ratios