00:31:21 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4837-gdd944a72e4 03:23:38 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4837-gdd944a72e4 05:06:36 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-223-gcb0039a (34) 08:36:23 gong 08:36:23 SHROANNG! 08:36:35 if armataur goes ru and sacs arm, does it become ataur 08:36:53 <10P​leasingFungus> lol 08:37:52 ill take that as a yes, thanks dev man 08:38:15 <10P​leasingFungus> any time 10:22:44 FR: default_manual_training = true 10:24:59 <10P​leasingFungus> nah 10:25:08 <10P​leasingFungus> uh 10:25:22 But why though? It's one of the few things I'd bet pretty much any player would agree on 10:25:26 <10P​leasingFungus> unless you mean that we should add the rcfile option that already exists, 10:26:00 <10P​leasingFungus> i will answer your question with a question: why does autotraining exist? 10:27:05 03kate-02 07* 0.30-a0-224-ge52a3cb02f: Reduce the chance per floor of ecumenical altars 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e52a3cb02f33 10:32:32 I can only make assumptions. My best bet is: If little Timmy plays Crawl for the first time and the tutorial doesn't mention it (I don't actually know) or skips the tutorial and jumps straight into it, autotraining, with some luck, just MIGHT prevent little Timmy from not wasting all his skill points on stuff his character doesn't use. Until he 10:32:32 dies to the first Quokka, that is. 10:32:56 there's a not too many in there 10:33:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-224-ge52a3cb02f (34) 10:36:17 there's a bunch of things a new player needs to keep track of. default autotraining dials that back significantly. more expert players can then turn it off when they've got other things under control and are up to managing their skills 10:36:20 (imo) 10:38:37 <06a​dvil> fyi in current crawl versions when you set default manual training to false, it saves across games and you should never have to mess with it again in that version 10:38:41 <10P​leasingFungus> geekosaur wins the prize 10:38:48 <10P​leasingFungus> advil too 🙂 10:39:02 me too I just had a very roundabout way of describing it 10:39:04 <06a​dvil> no rc editing needed even 10:40:17 but I disagree. It teaches new players bad habits... it's like literally the first thing people will tell you to turn off for good assuming you haven't quit the game for good after the first D:1 death 10:40:39 Recommend Gnoll for new players! Problem solved 10:40:43 <10P​leasingFungus> disagree 10:40:45 <06a​dvil> I would not tell that to a new player on their second game 10:41:08 <06a​dvil> hm, when testing something I spawned a pan lord that seems to change colors on every redraw, and its description doesn't mention anything about it that I see; is this a property that pan lords can have, or some kind of weird bug? 10:41:11 my viewpoint is informed by having started with rogue, then hack, then a bit of nethack. there was a rapid scale-up of things needed to be a good player 10:41:30 it's like turning locked camera off in LoL 10:41:37 <10P​leasingFungus> new players die because of bad tactics, not bad skilling 10:42:02 <05k​ate> i think pan lords can get various ETC colours, maybe? 10:42:02 <06a​dvil> you are vastly overestimating how much manual skilling would potentially help a very new player over many, many other things they need to learn 10:42:12 <06a​dvil> also probably overestimating how much autotraining hurts a new player 10:42:24 <06a​dvil> ah if so that could do it 10:42:30 <05k​ate> ah looks like just ETC_RANDOM (1 in 10, otherwise just a regular random colour) 10:43:28 I do neither. I'm not saying it kills people or it makes characters unplayable. I say it teaches bad habits which is true and the potential benefit is so minimal that one wonder's why one bothers with it when you have to re-learn it anyway 10:43:43 <06a​dvil> er, what is the bad habit it teaches? 10:44:49 <06a​dvil> also, with respect, you are kind of ignoring a lot of people saying some variant of "the benefit is not minimal" 🙂 10:45:29 That's very simple. A. Not caring about your skilling at all B. Training skills you don't need like that +0 club and C. stretching your experience thin which is almost always a bad idea especially in the early game 10:46:52 <06a​dvil> it doesn't teach B (because a player with autotraining isn't really aware this stuff is happening, they aren't actively doing anything), and A isn't a habit, it's a thing that the player has yet to learn 10:48:00 It seems we have come to an impasse. You win today, auto training. But you will go the way of food eventually 10:48:05 introducing a complex game (crawl is way more complex than rogue was!) in stages is not teaching bad habits, it's staging things by importance 10:49:41 and, turning your earlier comment on its head, gnoll is kinda proof that you can let focusing skills go without being unplayable 10:51:05 I already admitted defeat. But I would argue that the species is specifically made with that in mind so I don't let that fully count 10:52:14 03advil02 07[webtiles-hidpi-fix] * 0.30-a0-222-gd902e942d6: fix: correct tile width/height scaling calculations 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 23+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d902e942d609 10:53:14 why? it's not like other aspects of the species were adjusted to compensate 10:53:28 <06a​dvil> aptitudes? 10:53:33 @PleasingFungus btw I still need that PayPal of yours because I meant it when I said that I was going to send you pizza when Reaver hits trunk. I stand by my word 10:53:41 <10P​leasingFungus> lol 10:53:55 a week ago or so 10:54:01 <10P​leasingFungus> geekosaur: think skillrobin/antiskillrobin are arguably better examples 10:54:27 <10P​leasingFungus> t-minutiae: very kind offer but i’m good for now. thank you anyway. 🙂 10:55:05 np. 90% of commits are by you, what's up with that anyway. Where are the other devs 10:55:38 most specific features are added by one dev with feedback from others 10:55:44 I see 10:55:58 <06a​dvil> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/graphs/contributors 10:56:31 <06a​dvil> though something like https://github.com/crawl/crawl/graphs/contributors?from=2019-10-01&to=2022-10-09&type=c is maybe more useful to the question 10:57:06 I should note that I'm not a dev, I just kibitz — on the other hand I've been playing crawl since 4.0b26 and I think I'm the only one around who played peterb's crawl variant before it got merged with snark's to make Stone Soup 10:57:18 That spike in 2015 though 10:57:51 sadly I have no backups od it 10:57:55 *of 10:58:00 14* 10:58:33 geekosaur[m] lost in time : / 11:01:15 <06a​dvil> hm, am I understanding the pan lord appearance code correctly in that the description and the tile both completely independently use a hash of the name to produce something (more or less) related? 11:01:23 <06a​dvil> surprised this still works 11:01:31 <06a​dvil> I guess probably no one ever changes it 11:02:47 advil This is entirely unrelated but I think you just perfectly described how the Adeptus Mechanicus operates 11:09:25 <06a​dvil> I'm afraid I don't know what that means, though googling it did give me a like 20pg warhammer wiki entry 11:10:00 <10P​leasingFungus> it’s a warhammer 40k thing. 11:10:17 <10P​leasingFungus> folks tooling around with ancient tech they no longer understand. 11:10:48 ^ 11:11:01 <10P​leasingFungus> to some extent, all legacy codebases are like this. cf vinge’s a deepness in the sky. 11:11:21 ancient tech that is regarded as sacred and perfect... thus, don't change it! It still works, after all... 11:11:31 <06a​dvil> that ref I do get 🙂 11:11:47 <10P​leasingFungus> i was super taken with his code-archaeology 11:11:53 <06a​dvil> yeah me too 11:12:20 <06a​dvil> I remember I went to my programming language theory office hours as an undergrad and started talking about that stuff, in retrospect the professor probably thought I was insane 11:12:58 or a genius 11:13:39 <06a​dvil> or maybe just a future crawl dev 🤔 11:13:58 <06a​dvil> now that I think about it it is the sort of project that comes closest to the code archeology thing 11:19:48 On to new Djinn adventures! I think Fedhas might be a good choice since it supports ranged combat and Djinn basically have that as an innate feature... also briar patch and inner flame is the best thing ever 11:22:16 <10P​leasingFungus> advil: suspect supporting mainframe code, eg financial software, is even more archaeologesque 11:22:52 <06a​dvil> yeah, I somewhat recently (before pandemic I guess) talked to someone at a party who did that work as a consultant for the govt of canada 11:23:00 <06a​dvil> it's pretty crazy stuff 11:23:48 <06a​dvil> incredibly consequential, + way more painful than crawlcode 11:24:36 <06a​dvil> also pays surprisingly badly as a regular job 11:24:43 <06a​dvil> from what I understand at least 11:27:31 <10P​leasingFungus> nice 11:27:50 <10P​leasingFungus> tbf: probably pays better than crawlcode 11:30:16 <06a​dvil> fair 11:35:14 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-225-g04c3547f4f: feat: mention pan lord flavor color in description 10(2 minutes ago, 5 files, 21+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/04c3547f4f86 11:36:41 <10P​leasingFungus> oo, neat 11:41:46 Just met Duvessa and Dowan... with "tile_show_threat_levels = trivial, easy, tough, nasty" = Duvessa has  red highlight and Dowan yellow... so they are like... ketchup and mustard. You put so much attention to detail... 11:42:04 <06a​dvil> luckily, color is completely independent of the pan lord seed magic! 11:43:46 What is it dependant on, actually? My XL compared to enemy HD? 11:44:06 e* 11:45:44 <06a​dvil> ??threat level 11:45:45 <04C​erebot> threat level[1/1]: Based on monster's XP and your level: (monster xp) / (1 + sqrt(XP for your level/30)): <= 0 is trivial ("harmless"), <= 5 is easy, <= 32 is tough ("dangerous"), anything higher is nasty ("extremely dangerous") 11:46:16 <06a​dvil> weird formula 11:47:19 <06a​dvil> I have occasionally wondered if this should factor in anything else, e.g. distortion, will-checking abilities vs player will, ... 11:47:40 <06a​dvil> hard to know what should be in there once you start getting outside of pure monster xp/hd though 11:48:02 yeah it sounds like way too many factors and how would you weight them 11:48:25 <09h​ellmonk> don't think you can realistically come up with a formula that covers all cases well so better to keep it simple 11:48:53 <10P​leasingFungus> esp since stuff like sac courage exists 11:49:30 btw I can't get highlighting to work for how stabbable a monster is I have tried many of the options 11:52:15 <06a​dvil> What I've considered specifically is having a simple means of bumping the threat level by 1 level (or n levels) based on certain discrete conditions, maybe configurable along the lines of force_mores and the like 11:52:37 <06a​dvil> I suspect something like this might be tractable, in the sense that basically everything that already gets a default force_more is a good candidate for having this effect 11:53:21 <06a​dvil> hm maybe that's like only distortion 12:07:53 Maybe something to consider is the harder monsters for certain situations should have more XP all the time? 12:08:17 FR: make iron troll leather armour a distinct item that is slightly heavier and slightly more AC. Or something more interesting... Rough skin 1 that kinda works like spines? IDK 12:15:52 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-225-g04c3547f4f (34) 12:25:50 I do like the idea of troll armor improving with the level of the troll somehow... 12:26:48 The problem I see is when there is those kinds of trolls they tend to really pack a punch... 12:27:04 The problem I see is when there is those kinds of trolls they tend to show up so late no one will wear such armor anyways. 12:30:10 With the dex and ranged weapon changes, more characters will care about lgihter armour at least 12:30:18 lighter* 12:30:56 True. 12:31:03 don't forget magic users 12:31:38 but yes iron trolls are very late. you might get a blue one as a lair ending or in a vault sometimes somewhat early 12:32:26 If nothing else upgraded troll armor for later trolls could be nice. 12:33:54 * geekosaur wonders if that;s even possible any more or if it went away with old ash 12:34:17 used to be able to do skills transfer to make a high int troll 12:34:32 may have been a nem card too? 12:34:42 haven't done much nem 12:38:55 apparently still happens by whatever means 12:39:08 !lg * race=Tr int>20 12:39:08 13624. dilly the Wrestler (L25 TrRe of Cheibriados), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2022-10-09 15:53:40, with 2688517 points after 54515 turns and 1:11:15. 12:39:32 yeah I think chei is the only way to get a troll to university nowadays 12:39:52 !lg * race=Tr int>20 s=god 12:39:55 13624 games for * (race=Tr int>20): 12212x Cheibriados, 220x Okawaru, 142x Ashenzari, 127x Vehumet, 123x The Shining One, 97x, 97x Jiyva, 64x Nemelex Xobeh, 63x Kikubaaqudgha, 60x Sif Muna, 58x Makhleb, 49x Qazlal, 49x Ru, 42x Xom, 40x Wu Jian, 38x Gozag, 27x Elyvilon, 24x Yredelemnul, 18x Hepliaklqana, 17x Dithmenos, 16x Fedhas, 15x Lugonu, 8x Zin, 8x Uskayaw, 8x Ignis, 2x Trog 12:40:38 Chei is terrible on troll don't fall for that btw 12:41:27 !lg * recentish race=Tr int>20 s=god 12:41:29 1293 games for * (recentish race=Tr int>20): 1103x Cheibriados, 33x Okawaru, 20x Gozag, 17x Ashenzari, 16x Vehumet, 14x Wu Jian, 13x, 9x Jiyva, 8x Ignis, 8x Ru, 8x Sif Muna, 6x Elyvilon, 6x The Shining One, 4x Qazlal, 4x Kikubaaqudgha, 4x Dithmenos, 3x Makhleb, 3x Fedhas, 3x Hepliaklqana, 3x Xom, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Lugonu, Zin, Uskayaw, Nemelex Xobeh 12:47:31 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-226-ge18b8abeca: randomly round freeze max damage. 10(3 minutes ago, 6 files, 9+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e18b8abeca0b 12:54:02 Vhi's Leisurely Stroll Through The City On A Sunday Afternoon... on Naga at least ; / 13:08:55 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-226-ge18b8abeca (34) 13:17:56 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-227-g6c849f5caf: adjust Portal Projectile rounding 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6c849f5caf6b 13:26:03 <10P​leasingFungus> hellmonk commitstorm incoming?? 13:26:12 <10P​leasingFungus> he's read every spell and now he has unlimited power 13:26:20 <10P​leasingFungus> assume he even understands how polar vortex works now 13:28:25 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-228-g2d71ba6e3a: random round bogcloud duration 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2d71ba6e3ad9 13:28:25 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-229-g2dd1c91445: Adjust noxious bog duration 10(54 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2dd1c914450a 13:28:34 <09h​ellmonk> doing the easy stuff first (rand rounding) 13:30:55 Careful with the endoplasm buffs Kappa 13:30:56 <10P​leasingFungus> you would marry div rand round if you could. you want to kiss it on the mouth. mwah mwah mwah 13:34:23 @PleasingFungus I guess that's possible in some countries... 13:34:43 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-229-g2dd1c91445 (34) 13:40:36 <09h​ellmonk> huh I wonder if endos actually get extra damage from that 13:40:47 <09h​ellmonk> ig they might 13:41:22 every endoplasma kill is your karma now 13:44:58 <09h​ellmonk> now that i think about it, random round stuff should probably display rounded up for monster spell damage 13:46:39 <09h​ellmonk> believe it will display as 1d4 now despite actually doing 1d5 80% of the time 13:51:38 <10P​leasingFungus> nice 13:52:01 <10P​leasingFungus> imo change the monster damage formula to make it always 1d5 for endos 13:52:11 <10P​leasingFungus> since what else cares about monster freeze 13:52:11 <09h​ellmonk> yeah that is reasonable 13:52:38 <09h​ellmonk> monster ghosts I guess? 13:53:36 <10P​leasingFungus> biiig who cares 13:53:48 <09h​ellmonk> unfort to do this I need to either change the formula back (which buffs player freeze) or run monster damage through a different formula 13:54:00 <09h​ellmonk> because 20 is not divisible by 3 13:54:13 <10P​leasingFungus> hm 13:54:43 <10P​leasingFungus> seems weird to div rand round freeze damage and not, like, every zap 13:55:19 <09h​ellmonk> don't zaps random round by default 13:55:21 <10P​leasingFungus> anyway, make spellpower for monster freeze use a different hd mult? 13:55:24 <10P​leasingFungus> do they? 13:55:25 <09h​ellmonk> or am i thinking about something else 13:56:35 <10P​leasingFungus> unsure 13:58:50 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-230-g3c8e1c8089: randomly round summon hydra heads 10(23 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3c8e1c8089e1 13:58:50 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-231-g6ac44c9753: random round infest status duration 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6ac44c97530f 13:58:50 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-232-g7c5df11ecf: random round dragon call duration 10(51 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7c5df11ecf87 13:59:38 <09h​ellmonk> well if anyone has a strong preference I can change it back, otherwise I would prefer to just fix the display for the monster version 14:00:23 <09h​ellmonk> my main motivation for the change was actually just to make 24 power and 25 power not identical 14:04:28 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-232-g7c5df11ecf (34) 14:05:50 The 1.9 cheinaga slow charge and I'm only at * piety yet! How SLOW can we go? 14:16:11 <10P​leasingFungus> oops 14:16:15 <10P​leasingFungus> silly thing to forget 14:16:41 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-233-g46bee08b82: Derandomize monster Freeze damage dice 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/46bee08b82c9 14:16:41 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-234-g97d66968fd: And unnerf endoplasms (see last commit) 10(39 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/97d66968fd16 14:17:13 <10P​leasingFungus> anyway, you're right, zaps are already div rand rounded 14:17:16 <10P​leasingFungus> unsure how i feel about that 14:25:56 <09h​ellmonk> I think it's preferable on the player side, on the monster side it might be better to floor everything 14:27:49 <10P​leasingFungus> sounds reasonable 14:34:10 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-234-g97d66968fd (34) 15:18:16 FR: Psionics. It's magic, but better 15:23:54 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-234-g97d66968fd (34) 15:25:53 10.10.22 demonic tree leaving behind a chaos cloud had actual impact on the game. burned down half the forest with starburst and thrashing horror stepped into the chaos cloud and got para'd 15:28:36 a proud day for tree kind 15:44:04 where is bog tile expiration handled? 17:00:06 BountyHunterSA needs to update his starts to 2022 because it's very unlikely to get dealt an unplayable hand on Djinn... I mean I went TSO again and got Agony, Borgnjor's Revivification, Infestation and even DD as my final spell but it doesn't even matter 17:00:15 strats* 17:01:35 of you get SOME okayish attack spell you are mostly a-okay 17:10:44 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-235-gfbc3a94d58: remove hidden hibernation power stepdown 10(32 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fbc3a94d58bc 17:10:44 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-236-g0740ab4923: remove slow's hex power buff 10(24 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0740ab49235d 17:10:44 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-237-g3abaafb9f6: randomize slow hex duration 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3abaafb9f633 17:10:44 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-238-g88f5cd7b0b: correctly cap hibernation at 50 power 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/88f5cd7b0b18 17:10:44 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-239-gba8dcd3c80: round mephitic cloud duration 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ba8dcd3c80d2 17:10:44 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-240-g3111722afa: checkwhite 10(28 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3111722afadc 17:11:33 <09h​ellmonk> if this buffs hibernation too much, feel free to nerf it in a way that doesn't involve a stepdown that isn't displayed in the success targeter 17:16:06 Djinn is one of the most fun races btw it's like the gnoll of magic you can use everything you get and it's also the demonspawn of magic you never know what you get and it keeps the game exciting to XL 27 17:16:11 good job devs 17:18:52 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-240-g3111722afa (34) 17:26:27 03hellmonk02 07* 0.30-a0-241-g1121274140: adjust Kiku actives 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/11212741409d 17:34:15 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-241-g1121274140 (34) 18:40:13 imamambug (L21 FoFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D (Sprint)) 22:35:01 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-241-g1121274140 (34) 22:57:02 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-241-g1121274140 23:46:21 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-241-g1121274140 (34) 23:54:24 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-241-g1121274140