00:41:12 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4797-g7d1cfc5502 03:22:17 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4797-g7d1cfc5502 05:06:49 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-135-g630cfc4 (34) 08:23:51 <08nicolae> speaking of unstable branches, what branches could use more vaults. i should probably also commit to making more involved vaults like rune vaults and portals. i know portals was on the list last time i asked. 08:35:51 <10PleasingFungus> we were talking about alternate slime endings 08:36:02 <10PleasingFungus> a bigger project, but maybe interesting 09:25:20 <09gammafunk> Hrm, could be fun 09:29:38 <08nicolae> i assume you could just reuse the existing code for slime walls so at least that wouldn't have to get redone 09:30:41 <08nicolae> hm, looks like the code is currently baked into the slime ending map itself, and not pulled out into a separate function 09:39:10 <06advil> I think the most important step is in fixup_slime_vaults 09:39:53 <06advil> almost everything on the map is marker setup 09:41:07 <06advil> and trj setup 09:41:58 <09gammafunk> Slime walls are just generally handled, but I guess nicolae means the treasure walls 09:42:19 <06advil> yeah, those are removed in that fixup function 09:42:25 <06advil> local seen = dgn.seen_destroy_feat("clear_stone_wall") does it I believe 09:44:57 <09gammafunk> It would be neat to take up elliptic's suggestion to partially de-slime-wall and use a bigger variety of vaults and layouts and allow normal loot gen, even if average loot was reduced compared to most levels 09:45:36 <09gammafunk> Compared to zot, another dive-prone branch, slime is less successful 09:46:32 <09gammafunk> Zot has good variety of layout and memorable vaults on zot:1-4 09:46:54 <09gammafunk> Slime is basically only the end level 09:47:34 <09gammafunk> Without the added tension/mechanics of hell dives 09:47:39 <09hellmonk> Possibly the disconnects also play a role here 09:47:45 <09gammafunk> Yeah 09:47:51 <09hellmonk> It makes the levels functionally very small if you are diving 09:48:02 If i were to create a constant for water speed penalty, where would that go 09:48:04 <09hellmonk> hard to get good variety 09:48:07 <09gammafunk> Limit size 09:48:46 <09hellmonk> I think orc 1 actually has the same problem to a lesser extent 09:48:57 <09hellmonk> there's more vault variety there at least 09:49:18 <09gammafunk> So we might want to start with slime end, but would be good to look at branch as whole 09:49:27 <09hellmonk> and probably a more interesting (for that part in the game) monster set 09:49:47 <09gammafunk> Now that we also have a better slime monster set 09:52:05 <09hellmonk> maybe just enabling different layouts would help, idk how that plays with slime walls tho 09:52:16 <09gammafunk> Agree about orc having similar issue where orc:1 cells not well utilized 09:53:37 <09gammafunk> My thought was to reduce slime wall usage and be more targeted with it, but that needs more details 09:54:39 <09gammafunk> Big set of new vaults using slime walls, both decorative and encounter and layouts mostly use rock 09:55:13 I feel like slime's uniqueness comes largely from how pervasive slime walls are 09:55:40 <09gammafunk> Do think we'd need to use other layouts 09:55:49 <09hellmonk> The not wanting to stand adjacent to wall part is arguably good yeah 09:56:08 <09gammafunk> It's good when more limited 09:56:12 <09hellmonk> doesn't work super great since you always have stair but whatever 09:56:24 <09gammafunk> And used in a focused way 09:56:29 you always have stair, and you have 0 reason to explore the floor 09:56:46 honestly if used in a focused way I'm pretty sure you trivially avoid them 09:57:05 since you already fairly trivially avoid them 09:57:09 <09gammafunk> Having a wall type that doesn't work in most situations it's used 09:57:29 <09gammafunk> Isn't uniqueness worth preserving 09:58:05 <09gammafunk> And this would not remove the wall type nor make it rare 09:58:36 <08nicolae> increase % of slime walls as you get deeper so at slime 1 it's like 10% of the walls and at 6 it's 100% 09:58:58 <09gammafunk> That wouldn't really achieve anything 09:59:17 <09gammafunk> Also it's 5! 09:59:40 <08nicolae> 120 floors? that's a bit much 09:59:50 <09gammafunk> Worth it 10:00:04 <08nicolae> also i forgot that slime got a floor chopped 10:00:08 <09gammafunk> For the excellent slime wall content 10:00:19 <08nicolae> slime wall, or slall for short 10:01:08 <09hellmonk> I would like branch where you don't want to next to the wall to work so hopefully there is some way to do it 10:01:40 <09gammafunk> Well this is like the desolation scenario 10:02:13 <09gammafunk> You want some it, you don't want 100% of a branch of it 10:02:49 <09gammafunk> Because if we are going to more memorable slime levels and vaults 10:03:24 imo just giving actual reason to explore slime is enough to make the gimmick function 10:03:27 <09gammafunk> We don't want all of that to extremely random slime wall throughout 10:03:42 unforced reason that is 10:04:01 <09gammafunk> It will make exploring it very tedious 10:04:07 lets you opt out of random slimewall bs, or if you're just sick of the gimmick 10:05:04 <09gammafunk> Better to design a good thing than design a bad thing and tell people to opt out 10:05:25 <09gammafunk> That's how we try to design for the project 10:05:43 no need to snark 10:05:51 <09gammafunk> It's extended but we do want it to be fun 10:06:10 <09gammafunk> When people choose to do extended 10:06:48 Fun is subjective, and while I would enjoy the difficulties exploring obnoxious wall land, I can understand that others wouldn't 10:09:19 <09gammafunk> It's generally better to look to improve rather than trying hard to preserve status quo, especially when there's general agreement among those motivated to make changes, and there is usually compromise in that 10:09:29 fwiw I wasn't suggesting "partially de-slime-wall", I just want slime walls dead since I don't think they do anything other than constrain layout/vault design 10:09:39 <09gammafunk> Yes 10:09:54 and monster design 10:09:56 <09gammafunk> But I was trying to compromise there 10:10:02 like I think the branch badly needs more monster variety 10:10:26 the new slimes only help slightly, it would be nice to be able to reuse some stuff from oter branches without them just dying to slimy walls 10:10:36 <09gammafunk> Agree it's not the best mechanism but would be sad to see it go completely 10:11:14 I don't see that having slime walls throughout is intrinsically a bad thing, even for a full branch (which current slime functionally isn't). I imagine some would get sick of the gimmick, and I imagine that you'd have occasional random generation that would be infeasible to navigate. 10:11:25 <09gammafunk> Pervasive rcor+++ field for monsters in slime 10:12:01 <09gammafunk> elliptic: did you have any monsters in mind 10:12:12 I think it's intrinsically a bad thing, it's just more predictable cloud generators 10:13:09 like I'd vastly prefer having random acidic cloud generators rather than having "these fixed squares hurt you" 10:13:38 and I don't think cloud generators are a popular feature of ice caves or something we'd want in much greater quantity 10:14:04 I'm not sure which existing monsters would work best, but something ranged 10:14:16 the current slimes are really heavily focused on melee 10:15:45 <08nicolae> rockslimes shoving people into walls is nice in principle, at least 10:17:32 orb spiders 10:18:23 <09gammafunk> It is but it works with cloud gen too. 10:19:03 <09gammafunk> It also works fine on it's own 10:19:48 <09gammafunk> Maybe cloud gen would be better but acid clouds would need some rework 10:20:43 <09gammafunk> Currently rcorr makes you immune to acid cloud damage 10:20:46 to be clear I'm not really suggesting cloud gens, I just think they are a better design than slimy walls 10:20:56 <09gammafunk> Yeah 10:21:25 <09gammafunk> Slimy wall concept rethink may be required 10:22:27 what if instead of doing damage over time slimy walls just passively gave you a pip of corrosion while you are next to them 10:22:55 stacking per wall, so if you are next to two walls you have -8 10:23:18 <09gammafunk> Yeah not over time at all 10:23:37 this would give more freedom for layout/vault design 10:23:59 while still making the branch look/feel different 10:25:58 <09gammafunk> Seems workable and you could maybe decrease their usage only somewhat depending on layout and vault changes made 10:26:34 I'd still feel happy standing in a killhole and blasting everything with LRD, though. 10:26:56 Corrosion only matters when something hits you. 10:28:41 or you try to hit something and you're melee 10:29:19 I like that 10:29:27 I'd rather use LRD at point blank range. 10:29:51 Also, even if you'd be happy standing in a killhole, there's still a tradeoff involved by making yourself squishier 10:30:14 -28 AC or whatever isn't nothing, also slimy walls don't have to be diggable etc 10:30:52 feel like it's more interesting if they are 10:31:52 Slime starts out with quite an irregular layout as things stand. 10:32:12 <09gammafunk> There are more ranged threats in hypothetical nuslime so lrd kill holes may not be so free 10:32:57 I mean, the whole point of the change is that it lets you use other slime layouts 10:33:05 assuming it will look exactly like the current layout is missing the point altogether 10:40:43 New branch created: pull/2739 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2739 10:40:43 03Monkooky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2739 * 0.30-a0-136-gc46a405254: disregard water for determining if you are too fast for swiftness 10(48 seconds ago, 1 file, 8+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c46a40525450 10:50:11 should https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/2597 be closed? it seems like there was a fix for it 10:54:51 Hm. Something is fucky with my environment. Checkwhite is finding unnecesary whitespace in every file. 10:55:44 Control-Ms maybe? 11:17:17 <09hellmonk> wall corrosion concept seems interesting 12:03:03 <09gammafunk> Yeah I think the general solution to how to make anti-player walls work is likely debuff rather than DoT, since this plays better with monsters and that proposed solution doesn't involve resting off effects either 12:15:09 Hey guys! I have a few "issues" that are so extremely insiginificant that they don't qualify as bugs. I am thus not sure if I should open them on GitHub. For example, when you are in spider form and examine a monster with x-v it will say "about X% chance to evade your front legs". This is consistent with other forms but it doesn't really make 12:15:12 sense. "Fangs" would make more sense in this case (screenshot: https://ctrl.vi/i/d5q-2Tt4M). Or that the ability icon for storm form has a slightly different shades of orange and brown than all other "form" icons (thus unlikely to be an intentional artistic choice). Or that AT_HEADBUTT would be more appropriate for dream sheep... 12:15:12 Obviously, all of these have zero impact on gameplay. But I think attention to detail is one of the game's strong suits. 12:15:12 What would be the proper way to report such trifles, if at all? 12:47:14 <06advil> those would be fine to open github issues for 12:48:10 <06advil> AT_HEADBUTT is unused for actual monsters though 12:50:29 <06advil> (that is, I believe it only exists for ghosts where the player had horns) 12:51:17 <06advil> sheep apparently do bite 12:51:39 Would AT_GORE work? Give the sheep some proper horns? 12:53:53 <06advil> possibly, but I'm sort of guessing bite was chosen because damage levels for goring tend to be a bit higher than individual dream sheep should have 12:54:43 <06advil> tw body horror https://www.consultant360.com/articles/farmer-s-thumb-lesion-after-sheep-bite-identifying-zoonosis 12:56:06 Cerran (L14 KoBr) ERROR in 'tags.cc' at line 4870: Invalid item: (quantity: 0) gold piece (Lair:5) 14:08:35 03advil02 07* 0.30-a0-136-gea98e250e0: feat: more butterflies 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 23+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ea98e250e0fc 14:18:17 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-136-gea98e250e0 (34) 14:20:12 04Build failed for 08master @ ea98e250 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/3093467923 14:21:41 <06advil> huh, github gave a 429 error on submodules 14:25:27 <06advil> hopefully that's not a new thing 14:25:49 <06advil> because I have no idea how we'd lower the amount of requests 14:31:25 <06advil> seems to be ok on a rerun at least 14:50:04 <10PleasingFungus> @advil ty for butterflies! 14:50:36 <09gammafunk> Advil gameplay feat commit :PlogChamp: 14:50:44 <06advil> heh 14:50:48 <06advil> it happens from time to time 14:50:55 <06advil> you're welcome, like I said, I have no idea if that's enough or too much? 14:51:19 <10PleasingFungus> there's no save compat so we can go wild 14:51:27 <10PleasingFungus> the one thing that i vaguely worry about is hitting the per floor monster cap 14:51:37 <10PleasingFungus> ...we could probably increase that if we wanted to 14:51:38 <06advil> yeah, seemed low cost to just try it out 14:51:43 <10PleasingFungus> since i doubt it's changed in the last 20 years 14:51:47 <10PleasingFungus> (also probably this won't hit it anyway) 14:51:59 <06advil> probably increasing that involves some insane save file engineering though 14:52:06 <06advil> I looked into increasing the item cap once, it was scary 14:52:09 <10PleasingFungus> huh 14:52:13 <10PleasingFungus> i'm surprised 14:52:19 <10PleasingFungus> i'd think we could just use canaries and such 14:53:12 <06advil> maybe I am scared of "canaries and such" 14:57:03 <06advil> looks like the monster cap is 700, I think most things that are not megazigs should not be anywhere close? 14:58:01 <09gammafunk> Hm I assume if megaziggs don’t hit it then butterflies likely wouldn’t, given how many zig monsters summon 14:58:09 <10PleasingFungus> i thought megazigs do hit it 14:58:26 <10PleasingFungus> but yeah anyway it should be fine. 14:58:42 <09gammafunk> Oh it doesn’t generate even an error does it 14:58:59 <06advil> I think it'll just act like los is full if it's at the monster cap 14:59:36 <06advil> megazigs do hit the item cap with gozag gold sometimes, but I'm not sure if they do hit the monster cap 15:23:52 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-136-gea98e250e0 (34) 16:50:12 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-137-gd8773701ce: Downgrade Entropy Weaver HD 10(61 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d8773701ce77 17:03:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-137-gd8773701ce (34) 17:34:16 03Monkooky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2739 * 0.30-a0-137-g9fbdace7aa: fix checkwhite 10(39 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9fbdace7aa41 17:42:30 -!- ifreund_ is now known as ifreund 20:11:44 New branch created: reslime (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/reslime 20:11:44 03hellmonk02 07[reslime] * 0.30-a0-138-gaedbf04cb0: feat: Rework slime walls 10(4 minutes ago, 6 files, 9+ 41-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aedbf04cb03c 20:12:06 <09hellmonk> did a quick implementation of the slime wall thing discussed earlier; this would still need a change or replacement for Jiyva oozemancy and then actual new slime content before going live 20:12:48 <09gammafunk> https://tenor.com/Iqux.gif 20:14:13 <09hellmonk> currently monsters next to slime walls are just not handled (since part of the point is to let other stuff into the branch) so oozemancy also just doesn't work at all, not sure if it's worth a full replacement or just making oozemancy walls special or what 20:16:59 <09gammafunk> yeah, acid-damage walls for jiyva only seems reasonable enough 20:35:55 -!- dax is now known as Cassie 20:36:49 <10PleasingFungus> @hellmonk dang, so fast 21:39:42 <08nicolae> so one idea i've been bouncing around for a while, and maybe mentioned, is an unrand that's its own unique, it only generates as a dancing weapon. downsides: has to be good enough to be worth killing it for, otherwise nobody would bother. also i feel like its power should be somehow evocative of its dancing nature. anyway. just putting it on the goofy brainstorm pile and getting it out of my head. 21:40:56 <10PleasingFungus> the singing and dancing sword, 21:42:18 <08nicolae> iirc there was some thoughts of making a vault putting morg in an early game vault and even morg as a dancing weapon would have murdered an early player, and it's hard to convince players to do HoB, so there's a sort of balance there between "killable" and "worth killing" 22:34:54 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-137-gd8773701ce (34) 22:56:59 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-137-gd8773701ce 23:15:41 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-137-gd8773701ce (34) 23:25:19 one issue with a dancing weapon unrand is that if it generates reasonably frequently (like other uniques) then that's a lot of games with access to the same weapon 23:54:22 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.30-a0-137-gd8773701ce 23:54:57 So it turns out if your workspace's default line endings don't match the code's line endings, github gets verrrry confused 23:55:27 or, checkwhite and github collaborate to become confused together 23:57:10 <08wormsofcan> make the dancing weapon unrand the boss of tukima's studio, clearly