00:31:43 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4778-g1c48639af6 03:01:20 <03TZer0> Hmm, getting some weird error messages in the python-server.. 2022-08-29 10:00:38,050 WARN: IOLoop blocked for 0.500000 seconds in 03:02:30 Webtiles server stopped. 03:02:33 Webtiles server started. 03:22:20 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4778-g1c48639af6 05:06:46 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.30-a0-40-gc6d0f03 (34) 07:31:49 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-41-gb3c18b1f4e: Fix: make rC+++ monsters immune to Refrig again 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3c18b1f4e05 07:31:49 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.30-a0-42-g806c11bf1d: Fix Artificer manual description (#2689) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/806c11bf1d6d 07:31:49 03PleasingFungus02 07[stone_soup-0.29] * 0.29.0-6-gecadbfa186: Fix Artificer manual description (#2689) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ecadbfa18647 07:31:50 <10PleasingFungus> undecided about pushing b3c18b1 to 0.29 during t. might be too impactful a difference between servers that upgrade and those which don't 07:47:52 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.30-a0-42-g806c11bf1d (34) 08:27:29 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-a0-105-gfd59ed72b1: Responsive layout 10(4 days ago, 6 files, 69+ 40-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fd59ed72b15b 08:27:29 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-a0-106-gd07543615f: Rename option: tile_window_minimum => tile_window_limit_size 10(3 days ago, 4 files, 6+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d07543615f90 08:27:29 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-a0-107-g0dc136218d: Toggle tab icons is Android exclusive 10(3 days ago, 5 files, 22+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0dc136218d17 08:27:29 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-a0-108-gcf5b79f35d: Minor Android changes 10(2 days ago, 5 files, 40+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cf5b79f35d43 08:27:29 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-b1-21-g0dbf925e60: Merge branch 'master-upstream' 10(20 hours ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0dbf925e6045 08:27:29 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-b1-22-g20e1baf61b: Update Android build to 0.29 10(19 hours ago, 2 files, 9+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/20e1baf61b73 08:48:28 03PleasingFungus02 07[stone_soup-0.29] * 0.29.0-7-g18a832c13a: Fix: make rC+++ monsters immune to Refrig again 10(80 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/18a832c13adb 09:06:35 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 09:14:23 <09gammafunk> Refridge now completely OP!!!!! 09:27:39 <06advil> @TZer0 I think that was a python 2.7 issue (https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/743cabc6810231b961898a00bf4cc84c7ff9bcf7), it should be fixed now so restarting should have worked (but upgrading to python 3 / Tornado 6 is highly recommended) 12:45:35 03DevJac02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2681 * 0.30-a0-30-g4e7dadf031: Force more when timed portals disappear 10(4 days ago, 1 file, 9+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4e7dadf031c4 13:47:29 <06advil> huh, does anyone know what actually reads the dgl status file that webtiles writes? If anything is doing so on cao I can't find it 13:49:18 <06advil> I had kinda assumed that dgl itself must read it? But it doesn't seem to 13:50:30 <06advil> also, what would be misconfigured so that every ongoing t game shows up for both 0.28 and 0.29 in dgamelaunch watch 13:51:11 <05kate> is that what http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/player-status used to use when it worked, maybe? 13:51:11 <06advil> *by every I mean every console 13:51:52 <06advil> hm seems possible, though I looked for a link to that file in www and couldn't find it 13:53:47 <06advil> there's a cgi I found that calls dgamelaunch -s, but that's only console 13:53:53 <06advil> re the latter looks like I misconfigured inprogress dirs 13:56:27 <06advil> huh, in fact I waited long enough and maybe that script is kinda working (for cao only) and is accessing that file somehow 13:59:02 <06advil> I think it's not, it's using inprogress dirs (now that I fixed them) 13:59:50 <06advil> but maybe it's supposed to be 14:24:19 Stable (0.29) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29.0-7-g18a832c13a 15:23:15 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.30-a0-42-g806c11bf1d (34) 15:57:19 <10PleasingFungus> sort of disappointed by how manifold assault seems to mostly be a tmut spell, rather than a 'hybrid' weapon-user spell as i'd intended. contemplating dropping it to level 4 and making it worse for tmut in some way, perhaps going from hitting 1-4 targets based on power to only hitting 1-2. 15:57:50 <10PleasingFungus> not sure mow much of a nerf that really is for the use cases. 15:58:13 <09hellmonk> well if you want to make it bad for transmuters just make it not work with unarmed again, right 15:59:34 <10PleasingFungus> i am considering it 15:59:38 <10PleasingFungus> it seems a little sad, maybe 16:00:16 <10PleasingFungus> initial consideration was doing damage (you're sending your limbs through the warp!), but that'd probably require annoying prompts. also considered reduced accuracy, but that just doesn't feel good 16:00:23 <10PleasingFungus> er, doing self-damage 16:00:36 <10PleasingFungus> anyway, idk. i can certainly take toys away from the tmuters if that's the only way to stop their madness 16:02:04 <09hellmonk> not sure that reducing the number of targets hit makes it worse for tmut relative to hybrid characters, it's still going to be better for transmuters because they get more damage per hit 16:05:51 <10PleasingFungus> surely it's more that they don't have to worry about getting it castable in armour or having to wear lighter armour to cast it 16:05:57 <10PleasingFungus> and that they already have some spcast, int, etc 16:06:30 <10PleasingFungus> anyway, i don't really so much care about making it worse for tmuters, just about making it a reasonable choice for non-tmuters without making it absolutely busted for tmuters 16:38:20 03robertxgray02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1892 * 0.29-b1-23-gf629c1b73e: Fix missing docs in Android build 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f629c1b73e42 16:41:53 -!- jfcaron_ is now known as jfcaron 16:48:26 <06advil> perhaps I'm missing a nuance but could you just make it incompatible with forms? 16:55:18 <10PleasingFungus> i could, but again, it feels a little sad 16:56:00 <10PleasingFungus> also maybe slightly harder to flavour, though i guess you could say something about 'the magic disrupts the etc etc' 16:56:27 <10PleasingFungus> i'm not actually out to kill tmuters, i just want to spread the love 17:38:41 <10PleasingFungus> @gammafunk re early-game aoo alternative: could take the kate route and make all early game monsters fast or ranged. fast: cockroach, iguana??, jelly?, phantom?, necrophage?, black bear? ranged: gob/hobgob/kob, gnoll, orc, ogre?? that gets you everything native to, like, d:5- 17:40:44 <10PleasingFungus> range could just be stuff like stones 17:41:22 <10PleasingFungus> and 'fast' could be, like, speed 12 17:41:23 <09gammafunk> hrm so much ranged plinking might have a fairly bad gamefeel 17:41:25 <10PleasingFungus> it might 17:42:05 <09gammafunk> also balance seems tricky, but overall those changes are more natural I guess 17:42:25 <10PleasingFungus> another option would be to make aoops a property of certain 'cunning' monsters 17:42:34 <10PleasingFungus> so that 'ranged' list 17:42:57 <10PleasingFungus> and then later on it just wouldn't show up 17:43:10 <09gammafunk> hrm 17:43:28 <09gammafunk> intelligent monsters get it? and once you get to certain xl it no longer happens? 17:43:38 <10PleasingFungus> no, i mean 17:43:45 <10PleasingFungus> literally it's a tag on some monsters (and included in their description) 17:43:56 <10PleasingFungus> like goblin, hobgoblin have the "sneaky aoo" flag 17:44:01 <10PleasingFungus> lil cunnin dudes 17:44:09 <09gammafunk> sure, I'm saying all intelligent monsters get this if player xl <= N 17:44:14 <10PleasingFungus> oh 17:44:18 <10PleasingFungus> that sounds very weird and confusing 17:44:23 <10PleasingFungus> sorry 17:44:53 <09gammafunk> perhaps, but I'm not sure putting the flag on early monsters only is a lot better. I guess it seems that we're training players to think about this early on 17:44:58 <09gammafunk> then we just make it go away 17:45:10 <10PleasingFungus> there are lots of monster specific mechanics 17:45:28 <09gammafunk> well, true, but as a new player, if you see this frequently on all these early monsters 17:45:38 <10PleasingFungus> it's only going to be on a fraction of monsters even early 17:45:55 <09gammafunk> right, but pretty big fraction! 17:45:57 <10PleasingFungus> like quokka, jackal, cockroach etc won't have it 17:46:00 <10PleasingFungus> ehh 17:46:13 <10PleasingFungus> like a third, i think? medium big 17:46:17 <10PleasingFungus> maybe more like a quarter 17:48:03 <09gammafunk> maybe good to bring up elliptic's complaint about how aoo creates a lot of situations where there's a very narrow set of choices arising as to how to approach a fight. It sounds like we're not really trying to address that complaint if we propose fast monsters and/or partial aoo 17:48:11 <09gammafunk> because the same situation would exist after these changes 17:48:12 <10PleasingFungus> sure 17:49:04 <10PleasingFungus> could just revert back to random energy and call it a day 17:50:00 <09gammafunk> yeah, was going to follow up in that direction, if player gets past d:5 with these changes, what then? Do we still have completely deterministic running in terms of gap = "guaranteed freedom modulo no new monsters showing up" 17:50:51 <10PleasingFungus> and also guaranteed being stuck next to melee monsters without a consumable or ability etc 17:50:55 <09gammafunk> admittedly that seems less of a problem because it's sort of common behaviour for turn-based roguelikes 17:51:25 <10PleasingFungus> yes, i do not actually consider that 'guaranteed freedom' a problem 17:51:28 <10PleasingFungus> as i said in the last discussion 17:52:53 <09gammafunk> when you pinged me and I stopped trying to each qw how to be a CA and started thinking about this convo I tried to get my brain into game design mode and so I started thinking about pillar dancing a goblin but all that happened in my mind 17:52:58 <09gammafunk> was that the pillar just collapsed 17:53:02 <10PleasingFungus> wow 17:53:34 <09gammafunk> so yeah unless collapsing pillars is a great idea, guess I'll really have to think a bit harder about it, but since you and others have done so a lot already, probably no easy answers 17:54:50 <09gammafunk> a lot of other roguelikes I'd look at manage to have an aggressive clock or don't really care much about balance or have mostly fast monsters (kate again!) 17:55:00 <10PleasingFungus> yeah 17:55:10 <10PleasingFungus> and aggressive clock sort of gets you into a death spiral situation, potentially 17:55:32 <10PleasingFungus> if your only means of survival is pillar dancing, but doing that eats up a significant amount of clock 17:55:50 <10PleasingFungus> (not even sure dancing eats up that much relative to overall variance between time taken for dungeon levels/characters...) 17:56:23 <09gammafunk> yeah that was from IA, which is just a pretty damn hard roguelike; the clock isn't such that you don't do it sometimes but if you do it much, you're going to have to leave that level early, and it does likewise have a bunch of fast monsters too 17:56:36 <09gammafunk> cogmind has fast monsters...does brogue care about this? 17:56:46 <09gammafunk> not that comparing to other roguelikes is all that useful in the end, but it's interesting 17:56:48 <09hellmonk> getting reminded of the tavern thread about special cave mud 17:56:52 <10PleasingFungus> brogue has food clock, but also doesn't really have that many things that dancing can help with 17:56:57 <10PleasingFungus> do we have to bring up bezotting monsters next 17:57:04 <10PleasingFungus> eh, i think it's good to do a survey of the field 17:57:06 <09gammafunk> we should, in honor of Lasty 17:57:18 <09gammafunk> since we didn't merge harm stacking!!! 17:58:02 <09hellmonk> the other answer, which would be an even more significant design change, would be to not regenerate player hp or mp over time (and somehow rework every effect so that this works without becoming a deep dwarf situation) 17:59:17 <10PleasingFungus> also you have to turn off stuff like breath timers probably 17:59:22 <10PleasingFungus> (i should rework drac at some point) 18:01:45 <09gammafunk> !clap bring back draconian ghost drain breath 18:01:46 <04Cerebot> 👏 bring 👏 back 👏 draconian 👏 ghost 👏 drain 👏 breath 👏 18:01:52 <09hellmonk> lol 18:02:27 <09hellmonk> ok how about this: re-add over time monster spawns but it only spawns player ghosts of increasing intensity that are worth 0 xp 18:02:38 <09hellmonk> 2 birds 1 stone 18:03:00 <09hellmonk> starts spawning them at like 1k turns on level or something 18:04:06 <09gammafunk> did sort of occur to me that the lore for "bezotting" could be about you becoming attuned or "more accepted" to the dungeon 18:04:11 <09gammafunk> hence it stops happening at some point 18:04:31 <09gammafunk> which is not terribly helpful in terms of the overall design problem, but one does need epic lore 18:04:50 <09hellmonk> unfortunately I think the only place that your epic lore thing makes any real sense is after picking up a rune, which is kind of too late 18:05:24 <09hellmonk> lair is not an epic enough branch entrance and temple entrance is too variable, also I don't want to have to enter temple 18:05:28 <09gammafunk> well you haven't read my temple rune proposal obviously 18:05:46 <09hellmonk> although making no temple a challenge mode is kind of hot 18:06:31 <09gammafunk> I still say crawl would probably be better with no actual temple and just the overflow system 18:06:56 <09gammafunk> maybe integrate the cool temple maps into overflows and then you can put monsters (and the temple rune that stops bezotting) in them 18:07:58 <09hellmonk> wow, is the official dev position no temple now? 18:08:09 <09gammafunk> no I think I'm probably the only one 18:08:11 <09hellmonk> it used to be that everyone demanded it as a new player landmark 18:08:54 <09gammafunk> just seems sort of natural to me and a good way to ensure god variety if we don't plop down so many gods all at once so frequently 18:09:24 <09hellmonk> well anyway I agree with that 18:09:52 <09hellmonk> I would also expand overflows even deeper, probably to D:12 at least 19:01:31 -!- jfcaron_ is now known as jfcaron 20:12:49 <10PleasingFungus> @Sastreii huh, i guess at some point we want simulacrum and spectral versions of the new zombie tiles you added. crawl has so many things... 22:36:38 <13Sastreii> Oh, right. I did slime simulacra, so i’m guessing we need some x-shaped and eyeball sim, correct? Am i missing something? 22:38:02 <12ebering> still big on the temple as a new player landmark 22:38:14 <12ebering> I think if we don't want to plop down so many gods all at once so frequently we can play w/the temple size slider 22:38:20 <12ebering> (i made it easier to slide that slider!!) 22:38:38 <12ebering> Im guessing this aoop discussion has some context from the other channel 23:14:47 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.30-a0-42-g806c11bf1d (34) 23:59:25 TollerGames (L19 DsHu) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 509 failed. (Excessive delay, 700 turns passed, delay type 9999299) (IceCv)