00:39:03 -!- mermaid is now known as transbee 00:47:13 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-275-g389c0b56f3 01:30:57 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4616-ga6c816d1e0 02:57:54 -!- FUZxxl_ is now known as FUZxxl 04:21:51 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4616-ga6c816d1e0 05:24:21 !lg * recent ikiller~~Robin 05:24:23 13338. WasteTime5 the Poker (L4 MfGl), slain by a goblin (a +0 club) (led by Robin) on D:2 on 2022-03-12 11:58:10, with 71 points after 1155 turns and 0:02:17. 05:24:43 mm, not quite 07:23:24 <10PleasingFungus> eh? that is robin getting credit 07:23:24 <10PleasingFungus> why do you say not quite? 07:23:58 was specifically looking to see if it showed "tossed by Robin"or similar 07:24:26 althouhg the question itself is a bit funny unless it's an ally getting killed 07:25:18 <10PleasingFungus> yeah just being tossed doesn’t add robin to the blame chain 07:25:27 <10PleasingFungus> but she usually only tosses her band 07:25:37 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * killer=robin kaux~~goblin 07:25:38 <04Cerebot> 3054. Edgar the Sneak (L3 FeEE), hit from afar by Robin (goblin) on D:4 on 2022-03-12 11:50:11, with 47 points after 3029 turns and 0:04:29. 07:26:24 <12ebering> !lg * killer=robin kaux~~ijyb 07:26:25 <04Cerebot> 4. aori the Covert (L4 VpNe), hit from afar by Robin (Ijyb) on D:3 on 2016-06-21 16:36:04, with 123 points after 3523 turns and 0:13:25. 07:26:27 <12ebering> yes 07:26:30 <12ebering> yessssss 07:36:58 <10PleasingFungus> very good 07:47:12 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-276-ge21a839c99 (34) 07:49:00 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-276-ge21a839: Make hunters more dextrous 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e21a839c99e4 07:54:48 <05kate> not sure if there was a vault somewhere that was doing that accidentally or if they could just pick them up normally, although it seems like it would've come up earlier if that were the case 07:55:12 <05kate> but i couldn't find any offending vaults at a glance 07:55:13 <10PleasingFungus> interesting question 07:55:38 03kate-02 07* 0.29-a0-277-g1251d06: Don't let monsters wield two weapons and a shield 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1251d06ae9a0 07:57:06 <05kate> oh actually, from existing code it looks like a vault must be doing it somewhere 07:57:15 <05kate> oh actually actually, nevermind! there was a pickup check blocking them from picking up shields in their regular pickup ai, but it didn't cover orbs 07:57:51 <10PleasingFungus> ha 07:57:59 <05kate> that existing check didn't cover them being given items by vaults though, so you could do a vault-placed blademaster with two rapiers and a buckler until that most recent commit 07:58:22 <10PleasingFungus> that’s called design space, actually, 07:59:17 <10PleasingFungus> i want an entropy weaver unique with four swords. fricasse 07:59:33 <09hellmonk> need to make a vault with a blade master dual wielding gyre and gimble and the autumn katana and wearing a tower shield 07:59:41 <09hellmonk> 4hand 08:00:00 <10PleasingFungus> lol 08:00:18 <05kate> there's also a check here to stop orcs from picking things up to replace items you've gifted them which is presumably dead code, since they shouldn't pick things up anyway? 08:00:26 <05kate> but if it weren't dead code, beogh orcs would be able to replace their gifted shield with a random orb if they felt like it 08:00:41 <09hellmonk> Does orb of guile work for monsters 08:00:57 <12ebering> yes 08:00:59 <09hellmonk> Big sorc para opportunity 08:01:27 <12ebering> I implemented guile, light, and mayhem for monsters 08:01:42 <12ebering> and maybe they can use rage to zerk at will idr if I did that or only thought about it 08:01:52 <12ebering> should make energy make them get a second cast roll 08:03:43 <09hellmonk> Gross 08:03:43 <12ebering> like negative antimagic or something 08:03:43 <05kate> i think i fought a centaur with an orb of rage and it berserked me, but i might have made that up 08:03:43 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-277-g1251d06ae9 (34) 08:03:43 <12ebering> would be a very funny bug 08:04:51 <05kate> The centaur kicks you for 1. The centaur goes berserk! 08:05:09 <05kate> is it a bug? i thought it was just the fact that *rage already works for monsters 08:06:09 <10PleasingFungus> i think ebering was saying it'd be a bug if the centaur made you go berserk 08:06:15 <10PleasingFungus> centaur going berserk looks right 08:06:25 <10PleasingFungus> oh, "it berserked me" is ambiguous... 08:06:27 <05kate> oh i see sorry, i meant berserked as in it went berserk, yeah 08:06:59 <10PleasingFungus> vaguely thinking more about the repositioning stuff and attacks of opportunity 08:08:22 <05kate> my vague aoop feedback is i played a muwn and got sting as my starting spell and kited stuff with it and it was fine all through the early game, i think the only time i noticed it was getting back to a corridor against a swarm of vampire mosquitos 08:08:55 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-278-g1c2307e: More early-game monster nerfs 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1c2307e1b39b 08:10:20 <10PleasingFungus> in some ways, i was fine with the old random energy status quo of "you can get a gap from an enemy if you aren't under time pressure/threat from other monsters". if it's you vs a yak, you can make a gap eventually; if it's you vs a whole mob, you're gonna pay some kind of price for distance. (of course, the way that random energy allowed you to make that gap was really fiddly, and it had other problems...) 08:10:42 <05kate> i'd be in favour of leaving it as-is and ignoring the sky-is-falling complaints at least for a while 08:10:49 <05kate> also wow, sigmund nerf... what is crawl coming to 08:13:52 <10PleasingFungus> this world is 2 cruel 08:13:59 <10PleasingFungus> also gotta give grinder a chance to pass sigmund again! 08:14:04 <10PleasingFungus> lig potion was cruel to grinder and kind to sigmund 08:17:05 <05kate> i mostly don't think the fact that repositioning mid-combat isn't always as free as it used to be in some cases is really any kind of problem, certainly it makes some things a bit worse than they used to be but i don't think it's some kind of horrific price to pay for the cost of fixing pillar dancing/random energy or anything like that 08:17:05 <10PleasingFungus> and yeah, still not planning any immediate changes to aoops, just brainstorming what i would change if i did want to change something 08:17:05 <10PleasingFungus> trying to give myself options in advance, you know 08:17:16 <05kate> fair! and fwiw i'm definitely happy testing this over fast monsters/slow players having played with it a bit now, since those admittedly probably are a bit more of a severe change, and it has lots of knobs to tune etc 08:17:28 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-278-g1c2307e1b3 (34) 08:20:49 <10PleasingFungus> oh, glad to hear that! i was worried you'd find this a bit too complex 08:20:54 <10PleasingFungus> (which would be a fair objection) 08:23:49 <05kate> oh rip, apparently you can't even gift orbs to beogh followers currently 08:23:49 <10PleasingFungus> wow 08:23:49 <10PleasingFungus> fix??? 08:23:51 <05kate> fix incoming, don't worry 08:23:57 <10PleasingFungus> 😌 08:24:35 <05kate> wonder if giving an allied warlord an orb of wrath would actually be good secret tech 08:24:44 <10PleasingFungus> into it 08:24:53 <10PleasingFungus> was talkin a bit with hellmo about beogh reform last night 08:25:58 <06advil> complexity is sort of an issue, I'm a crawl dev who hasn't played it and tbh I don't actually understand the new system. I've mostly held off on giving feedback for this reason, but I think this is at least part of the communications problem -- if I can't fully grasp it just from reading, I suspect very few regular players will. (Not that random energy was simple to grasp either.) 08:26:00 <10PleasingFungus> one of the questions was whether we wanted to retain equipment gifting in some way. the argument in favor is that equipment gifting is super flavourful, and it feels cool to "equip your retinue" and get to use your second and third best items and so on. argument against is that incentives to hand out polearms are a bit too strong 08:26:31 <10PleasingFungus> that's fair! one note is that i care a lot less whether players can comprehend it from reading about it than whether they can get it from playing with it 08:27:52 <10PleasingFungus> what in particular about it is confusing to you? 08:28:03 <10PleasingFungus> or, to put it another way, what's your current understanding of it? 08:30:31 <05kate> yeah, equipment gifting is really neat, i guess feasibly you could balance for polearms by tuning things like how effective monsters are at reaching past you/allies? they don't even have any penalty at the moment, right? 08:30:31 <05kate> awkward to have that work differently for hostiles/allies though 08:30:31 even then polearms would be good, since they reduce tendency to charge bravely into combat 08:30:43 and they increase the number of squares from which a monster can be attacked 08:30:51 <10PleasingFungus> could only allow gifting Orcish Items (axes, crossbows, armour) 08:31:01 oh, it didn't occur to me that anon spectating was broken, i figured the server admin had required logins to prevent some kind of abuse 08:31:01 <10PleasingFungus> but probably then incentives would shift towards giving out armour 08:31:29 <06advil> it's fixed but servers probably need to restart to get the fix 08:31:42 <10PleasingFungus> fwiw, i don't think it's the end of the world if giving out polearms is strong - right now there are people who advocate for giving out armour instead, and i suspect you could find people who argue for shields 08:31:47 <10PleasingFungus> since monster shields are really good 08:32:56 I gift shields when they already have a 1-handed polearm 08:33:36 <05kate> it's sort of tough since equipment gifting is also sort of the level of fiddliness that got removed from hep for being to micro-managey, and like, i definitely wouldn't argue in favour of adding it back there. but maybe beogh's fate is to be a worse-designed version of hep 08:33:41 <10PleasingFungus> lol 08:33:51 <10PleasingFungus> well, i'll keep thinking 08:34:02 <12ebering> equipment sacrifices :d 08:34:17 <12ebering> you get to stock up an armory and when an orc wants good stuff it loads from your armory 08:34:22 <12ebering> but you don't get to pick at the single orc level 08:34:42 <12ebering> and named orcs can maybe go to the armory more than once 08:35:17 <12ebering> I dunno I'm spitballing when I should be doin interview prep 08:35:21 <12ebering> don't make me elaborate 08:35:27 <10PleasingFungus> interesting 08:35:31 <10PleasingFungus> go prep!! 08:37:15 <05kate> i do think just moving towards limited-sized armies (i know 12 for apostles is the number that used to get thrown around but realistically i think it should be much lower) that get replenished from an abstract horde or something would be an improvement 08:37:15 <10PleasingFungus> my vague thought is that you'd have some number (4 or 6) core named orcs who stick around, get equipped, get resurrected, etc 08:37:15 <10PleasingFungus> yes 08:37:15 <06advil> @PleasingFungus no doubt I'm extra confused by reading individual commits and versions it went through, but it's hazy enough that I can't really answer this beyond that under new circumstances when moving next to a monster there's a 1/3 chance to take an extra hit, and no longer a chance to create a gap, with some sort of complicated interaction with monster speed and energy 08:37:15 <10PleasingFungus> and you'd get a larger army of 'temporary orcs' either by converting guys (which would get you 'friendly neutrals' who head toward the stairs, ely style) or by calling upon beogh to invoke orcragnarok, bringing the terrifying orcball upon your foes 08:37:15 <06advil> and player speed 08:37:15 <06advil> but like I said I haven't played at all since this change 08:37:27 <10PleasingFungus> well, it can be summarized a lot more simply than that: moving away from enemies has a 1/3 chance of letting em get a free attack 08:37:33 <10PleasingFungus> and then there's the usual mess of special cases, because it's crawl 08:37:43 <06advil> yes, that seems to undersell the special cases? 08:37:54 <06advil> which are what I think I mean in large part by "understand" 08:38:10 <10PleasingFungus> i think most of them are pretty intuitive 08:38:22 <10PleasingFungus> eg confused or fleeing monsters don't get aoops 08:38:30 <10PleasingFungus> energy, as you said, is the only dicey bit 08:38:34 <10PleasingFungus> (one sec, feeding baby) 08:40:34 <10PleasingFungus> ok, two sides of energy re monsters. note that neither of these show up with a normal speed player vs a normal speed monster 08:41:53 <10PleasingFungus> (1) attack energy. i said aoops are 'free' (no energy) for monsters, but what about for slow attacking monsters, like juggernauts or ogres? answer: they use energy equal to the difference between attack energy and move energy - eg an ogre, which takes 15 auts to do a normal attack and 10 auts to move, takes 5 auts to do an aoop 08:41:58 <06advil> tbc this wasn't an implicit request for an explanation 🙂 08:42:02 <10PleasingFungus> oh 08:42:05 <10PleasingFungus> well 08:42:08 <06advil> (just more an expression of how this change may seem from the outside) 08:42:15 <10PleasingFungus> do you mind if i do anyway? i'm sort of on a roll now 08:43:57 <10PleasingFungus> i feel very deflated 08:43:57 <06advil> haha sure 08:43:57 <06advil> I mean I would like to know 08:43:57 <06advil> I just didn't mean this to make you go through a whole thing 08:43:57 <10PleasingFungus> i love going through things 08:44:12 <10PleasingFungus> (2) aoop energy thresholds. it seems like a monster shouldn't get an aoop on you if it has no energy, eg if it just did a big juggernaut attack on you or w/e. how does that work exactly? current ruling is that the monster checks to see if, after your move, it could have enough energy to follow you; if it doesn't, it doesn't get an aoop 08:45:04 while you're on a roll, does casting swiftness protect you from aoops if it makes you temp faster than the monster? 08:45:33 <10PleasingFungus> one tweak on this that i'm considering is making monsters unable to aoop you if they're just slower than you are. right now, if you walk away from a worm, it might get 1-2 turns of aoops before you get enough of an energy difference from it to get a gap. this doesn't seem particularly necessary for preventing pillar dancing, and it is a lil rude to poor felids and such 08:45:50 <10PleasingFungus> (and to people casting swiftness - yes, monsters can currently get aoops on you while you're tom swiftying away until you're able to make a gap) 08:46:04 o, dang! 08:46:30 i've been using it as if it does, but i'm in too stressed-tunnel-vision-mode (and dealing with a band, usually) to parse out what's happening 08:46:33 i think i lived tho 08:46:43 <10PleasingFungus> it does seem to be sort of what people intuit 08:47:26 yeah i guess my brain thought that, now that my speed has gone up, yaks are effectively ogres 08:47:28 <06advil> for those 1-2 turns is the chance still the regular 1/3? 08:48:02 <10PleasingFungus> yeah 08:48:05 <10PleasingFungus> @??worm 08:48:06 <04Cerebot> worm (w) | Spd: 6 | HD: 4 | HP: 15-20 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Dam: 12 | regen | Res: will(10) | Corpse | XP: 4 | Sz: small | Int: animal. 08:49:10 03kate-02 07* 0.29-a0-279-g7c24998: Update a hint 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7c249980d5ac 08:49:10 03kate-02 07* 0.29-a0-280-gd808a8b: Allow gifting orbs to Beogh orcs 10(10 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d808a8bb3ccc 08:49:10 03kate-02 07* 0.29-a0-281-g0ef121a: Add a (redundant?) orb check 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0ef121a99bde 08:50:41 <06advil> probably a lot of what's confusing here is that there's both speed and energy usage 08:50:41 <06advil> (which is independently confusing) 08:50:58 ppl might be shocked if they died to a worm aoop - worms otherwise seem to be a kind of "dangerous training dummy" that *can* clobber ppl, but only if they play brainlessly/recklessly 08:52:57 <06advil> I think that tweak to worms etc will be a lot easier in a "first explanation" sort of way at least (which is still probably independent of the "does it matter in practice" type of question) 08:54:37 <10PleasingFungus> it is unfortunately +LoC, but i think it's just +1 08:54:39 <10PleasingFungus> which is liveable 08:55:05 <10PleasingFungus> or, hm, maybe i can replace another check 08:57:29 <06advil> I alluded to this in the other discord the other day, but another confusing first impression thing is how 1/3 is calibrated (on paper it sounds v harsh for basic repositioning stuff, I do understand that people playtested it before merge so it may not really be); I think it could be useful if this is calibrated somehow in a non-subjective way to regen rates w.r.t. some early game monster aoops 08:57:34 <10PleasingFungus> as in, we keep the 1/3 number, but we explain it as a ratio of hobgoblin damage to mummy regen? 08:57:49 <06advil> well, or figure out what that ratio even is and see how 1/3 looks against it 08:57:53 must be this tall to beat The Worm Of The Dungeon Entrance https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/SfHDAAXw/image.png 08:58:40 <06advil> iirc the idea from playtesting was that pillardancing was still possible with 1/5? 08:58:49 oh yeah, the 1/3 sounded pretty harsh until i actually played and realized it was a 1/3 chance to *check EV* 08:58:52 <06advil> so I suppose avg net hp gain should still be possible if measured 08:59:01 <06advil> *positive 08:59:06 <06advil> also possible 08:59:10 people who are braying might still be playing 0.28 and thinking that they'll just take hits 1/3 of the time 08:59:12 <10PleasingFungus> also plausible 08:59:19 <10PleasingFungus> i definitely think there's some of that, cebolla 08:59:21 and ignoring ev/regen/sh/etc 08:59:49 <10PleasingFungus> some people saying that you have to consider the worst case (monster aoop triggers every move and hits for max damage every time) and therefore repositioning is now impossible 09:00:35 <06advil> yeah I wasn't thinking in those terms but I was generally wondering how much more (or less?) swingy this makes basic repositioning 09:01:10 I mean if you consider worst case of /any/ situation in crawl you'd pretty much never get past D:1 09:01:18 could be valid for streak thinking. but that thinking should only apply to one hit? cuz the odds against max damage non-miss hits happening multiple times in a row gotta be astronomical? 09:01:23 <10PleasingFungus> xl 1 hufi vs hobgob is 0.4 avg damage per hobgob attack, 0.3 from gobs. regen is 0.06 hp/turn, so you take an average of 0.04 damage/turn after regen with aoops against a gob at the 1/3 chance 09:01:39 <10PleasingFungus> agree w both 09:01:46 <10PleasingFungus> 1/5 chance would make you exactly break even 09:01:50 <10PleasingFungus> let's look at our muen friend 09:01:52 <06advil> perryprog: people who streak are probably doing a lot of worst case reasoning like that, I can't see I'm good at it but this is how I approach being on a streak at least 09:01:58 <06advil> *can't say 09:02:10 Oh, fair. I never think about streaking since that's just not how I like to play. 09:02:10 <10PleasingFungus> woot, muen started in my petrified trees entry 09:02:12 <10PleasingFungus> #blessed 09:02:19 I love that entry vault! 09:02:25 Petrified plants are v cool 09:04:12 <10PleasingFungus> no no 09:04:12 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/952235186173661184/unknown.png 09:04:12 <10PleasingFungus> trees 09:04:12 <10PleasingFungus> not plants 09:04:12 trees are plants 09:04:12 smh 09:04:12 <10PleasingFungus> bold take 09:04:12 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-281-g0ef121a99b (34) 09:04:23 ooh, free dagger 09:04:35 nice entry for transmuters ;) 09:04:43 <10PleasingFungus> lol 09:04:56 <10PleasingFungus> i think that was from a goblin i stabbed 09:06:03 i do wonder if "budget skald" Tm with appendage+blood is a semi-intended play path 09:06:13 it's fun to try getting off the ground. 09:08:30 <10PleasingFungus> seems fine 09:50:07 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-282-g1fd2556: Prevent opportunity attacks from slower monsters 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 10+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1fd2556b9a4b 09:54:04 I dig it 10:02:14 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-282-g1fd2556b9a (34) 11:48:06 -!- Amadiro__ is now known as Amadiro 15:05:56 <05kate> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/2476 is tiles unreasons i guess, but also maybe this vault shouldn't be equipping zombies with items? 15:08:00 <05kate> although maybe it'd be good to show those on the tile anyway for the case where you animate something with a polearm 15:17:54 03Perry Fraser02 {kate-} 07* 0.29-a0-283-ga02f740: fix: remove surprious space in regen description 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a02f74083320 15:19:31 -!- kate--- is now known as kate- 15:33:13 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-283-ga02f740833 (34) 16:20:46 <09hellmonk> @PleasingFungus probably critical to show when a monster is slower/faster than you after this new opportunity attack thing (for player species with speed != 10) 16:23:38 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-283-ga02f740833 (34) 16:30:53 <10PleasingFungus> fair 16:37:15 What are the general thoughts on Swiftness? I haven't really used it before and it feels rather... very powerful IMO 16:37:33 Not cblink powerful or anything but very strong in a lot of situations without many downsides 16:39:09 Something something ironic as soon I said that I died on the turn that I cast it 17:26:41 <10PleasingFungus> lol 17:26:55 <10PleasingFungus> it does have a significant downside 17:28:58 I mean, the -Slow isn't for a looong time after you cast it 17:28:58 When I was using it I was getting across half the level and onto a stair in Lair. 19:06:53 swiftness used to be a lower level spell 19:07:15 it was nerfed cuz ppl already knew it's good 19:08:54 have you read duvessa's hyperbole spell guide for cool people? 19:35:33 nop, what's that 22:56:58 well, if you haven't googled it already 22:57:00 ??spell guide 22:57:00 spell guide[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&p=315075 22:57:40 grrr, as i suspected, the PR's build failures were probably due to working from windows - there was a tab in there instead of 4 spaces 22:59:28 i mean it's kinda on me, i surely hit the tab key, but normally that results in 4 spaces :( 23:00:22 <12ebering> util/checkwhite will fix your white space 23:00:43 gotcha 23:00:47 i have WSL going now 23:03:19 i imagine it's really hard to run such things from windows? i never actually built the game,but i was wobbling toward that goal 23:03:42 compiling and running tests via WSL now instead, seemed easier 23:09:33 03RojjaCebolla02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2466 * 0.29-a0-254-g079579e: tabs to spaces 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/079579e072d5 23:27:42 int'restin. petrified tree needs an underscore, but dispersal trap needs *not* an underscore 23:34:47 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-283-ga02f740833 (34) 23:43:37 03spicyCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2466 * 0.29-a0-254-gc369498: fix the build 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c36949840810 23:57:49 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-283-ga02f740833