00:02:58 New branch created: pull/2430 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2430 00:02:58 03RojjaCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2430 * 0.29-a0-119-ga0f36f1: Remove identification scrolls from troves 10(21 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a0f36f119b93 00:46:29 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-119-g4040846114 (34) 00:47:43 New branch created: pull/2431 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2431 00:47:44 03RojjaCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2431 * 0.29-a0-119-g28c2a65: Add a description for the spriggan hatter 10(17 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/28c2a65cc682 00:47:44 03RojjaCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2431 * 0.29-a0-120-g141ac22: Remove quote db entries for deprecated items 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 52-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/141ac224429e 00:47:44 03RojjaCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2431 * 0.29-a0-121-g61be762: Fix: Undefined local entry '_ashenzari_heavens_' 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/61be7628d03d 00:54:33 Monster database of quite-the-item branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-27-g318e63bf0e 01:00:26 03RojjaCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2431 * 0.29-a0-122-gcc418d4: Fix: No godspeak entry for 'Xom zero miscast effect' 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cc418d44fc23 01:47:58 Stable (0.28) branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28.0-1-gb440e238dd 01:48:27 Stable (0.25) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25.1-11-g244df3a29b 02:07:06 Stable (0.26) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.26.1-15-g04117e645d 02:25:47 Stable (0.27) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27.1-35-g4d5d836560 02:36:35 Stable (0.27) branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.27.1-35-g4d5d836560 02:41:03 Stable (0.28) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28.0-1-gb440e238dd 02:58:31 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4567-gb362bb5a12 03:26:51 Stable (0.26) branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.26.1-15-g04117e645d 04:17:20 Stable (0.25) branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.25.1-11-g244df3a29b 04:20:21 <09gammafunk> good old version updates 04:23:32 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4567-gb362bb5a12 05:39:28 <12ebering> @hellmonk was it intentional that pharaoh ants lack undead cold resist 05:40:14 <12ebering> (also that seems to be inconsistent across different undead) 08:53:49 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-120-gba4477c: Add Ignis to db_lint (SpicyCebolla) 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ba4477c8fd5c 09:12:15 <06advil> well, that commit spiraled became some sort of hellmonk-style tavern post in commit form 09:12:26 <10PleasingFungus> heh 09:12:26 <06advil> could definitely use some eyes to double check things 09:12:34 <06advil> or I guess complain that it's too much detail 09:12:53 New branch created: mut_despoiler (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/mut_despoiler 09:12:53 03advil02 07[mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-121-g509e9f5: docs: attempt to despoiler various aux/retaliation muts 10(8 minutes ago, 2 files, 119+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/509e9f55e085 09:14:03 <10PleasingFungus> Think i’d remove the word ‘ability’, since this isn’t an ability in crawl’s sense 09:14:03 <06advil> yeah, I was wondering about that 09:14:03 <06advil> maybe "effect" 09:14:03 <10PleasingFungus> and “this has a 66% chance of triggering” reads fine 09:14:03 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t understand why you have the boilerplate chance of hitting thing in there 09:14:41 <06advil> in the sense that it is the same answer as to-hit in general? 09:14:48 <06advil> or aux to-hit 09:14:54 <06advil> not entirely sure if that's the same 09:15:29 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-120-gba4477c8fd (34) 09:16:02 <06advil> actually I know that aux to-hit has its own code path 09:16:35 <06advil> I put it in because I think this isn't at all clear to players, but you're right that I think this ends up being the same for everything that has an aux to-hit check 09:16:45 <10PleasingFungus> it seems like it eats up a lot of words and doesn't really tell the player anything useful or actionable 09:16:51 <06advil> I initially wasn't sure if it was the same 09:16:59 <10PleasingFungus> i'm very surprised you put in all this work and didn't include base damage 09:17:15 <10PleasingFungus> since that is one of the bigger differentiators between auxes 09:17:54 <06advil> it could be added, but one would have to understand aux damage calculation to do that 09:17:55 <06advil> I think 09:18:23 <06advil> it's minutely different for everything 09:18:57 <06advil> e.g. I just wasn't up at this point for translating to prose stuff like int get_damage() const override { return damage + max(0, you.get_mutation_level(MUT_STINGER) * 2 - 1) + you.get_mutation_level(MUT_ARMOURED_TAIL) * 4 + you.get_mutation_level(MUT_WEAKNESS_STINGER); } 09:20:22 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 09:20:22 <10PleasingFungus> lemme poke at it a lil 09:20:22 <06advil> do you not think that knowing the mutation is affected by fighting/dex is actionable? 09:20:22 <06advil> it's possible that increasing those for the effect is a trap of course 09:21:06 <06advil> the other reason I had that there is because from the player's perspective, the effect of triggering is an interaction between this base chance and to-hit, and it's super confusing to understand the base chance without realizing that your to-hit is low 09:21:21 <06advil> I think that was definitely a thing going on in the reddit thread I linked 09:21:56 <10PleasingFungus> yeah 09:22:19 <10PleasingFungus> i think it would be very strongly wrong for most characters to make skilling or stat decisions to increase the to-hit chance of their aux attacks 09:22:38 <10PleasingFungus> since the effect on to-hit is quite small and the effect of hitting is also quite small 09:22:49 <06advil> right, I think I would call that actionable but misleading (and I agree) 09:22:59 <10PleasingFungus> sure, fair 09:23:25 <06advil> so I think the wording should have some boilerplate to indicate that roll is there, but not mentioning specific stats/skills would make it less misleading 09:23:59 <06advil> I also do wonder if it's uniformly misleading for everything, maybe it is 09:24:35 <06advil> but e.g. is demonic touch actually good enough that it's worth trying to increase the odds? Maybe not, I don't really know 09:26:40 <06advil> or offhand claws 3 (thought that is a regular punch roll which I didn't attempt to explain) 09:26:40 <10PleasingFungus> we already say that fighting skill increases to hit and that dex increases to hit 09:26:40 <10PleasingFungus> we don't re-mention that in every weapon description 09:26:40 <10PleasingFungus> and it'd be more relevant there (since weapon damage is much more impactful) 09:26:40 <10PleasingFungus> also, i think the % to-trigger that you list is very slightly wrong? 09:26:40 <06advil> might be mentioned in the commit msg 09:26:41 <10PleasingFungus> ah, i see 09:26:58 <10PleasingFungus> eg you have beak as 66% at xl 27, but it's actually (57/60) * 2/3 = 62% 09:27:22 <06advil> yes, except for rolls that were 100% I rounded up from the xl modifier effect 09:28:18 <06advil> could go the other way, it's fine, just produces less memorable numbers 09:30:14 <10PleasingFungus> sure 09:30:40 <06advil> in fact I'd almost be inclined to tweak that so that it doesn't, but that rolls cap out at 95% or something 09:32:57 <10PleasingFungus> i was considering tweaks along those lines, yeah 😛 but let me fiddle first 09:35:26 <06advil> there's probably some other stuff that could be simplified too 09:35:41 <06advil> mino retaliation was one pretty involved case 09:37:01 <06advil> and the specific chances for various aux things seemed a bit miscellaneous, though they might make more sense paired with damage info 09:37:18 <06advil> though I expect that also will be quite miscellaneous 09:46:40 <10PleasingFungus> @advil ^ 09:47:12 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/944636247769509978/unknown.png 09:47:49 <06advil> huh, interesting 09:47:52 <06advil> you can just commit to my branch if you want 09:48:06 <10PleasingFungus> thanks! didn't want to presume 09:48:46 <06advil> I do think it would be good to have something like "and it is affected by accuracy" or "subject to a to-hit roll" even if that is boilerplate for all aux attacks 09:49:06 <10PleasingFungus> "base damage 6 if it hits"? 09:49:15 <06advil> yeah, that may work 09:49:36 <06advil> basically because I think the difference between not triggering and not hitting is v confusing for stuff like this 09:49:41 <10PleasingFungus> sure 09:49:50 <10PleasingFungus> lemme poke around at a few more of these 09:50:16 <06advil> can you add comments in the c++ code for each one that has matched lua code? 09:50:45 New branch created: pf_draft_mut_despoiler (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/pf_draft_mut_despoiler 09:50:46 03advil02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-121-g509e9f5: docs: attempt to despoiler various aux/retaliation muts 10(45 minutes ago, 2 files, 119+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/509e9f55e085 09:50:46 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-122-gb574742: Beak 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b57474204a9f 09:51:55 <06advil> just indicating that it is there 09:51:55 <10PleasingFungus> seems reasonable 09:51:57 <10PleasingFungus> i was also wondering about exposing a new clua endpoint that takes an aux attack name and returns the odds, so that we could try to localize the logic a little more... 09:52:10 <10PleasingFungus> not sure if that'd help much, though 09:58:15 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 09:58:15 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/944638825207066685/unknown.png 09:58:15 <10PleasingFungus> i also vaguely wonder about moving these into C completely 09:58:29 it would be straightforward if tedious to have a lua interface that just gets these numbers, if that's what you mean 09:58:48 or just generating the text altogether on the c++ side? 10:04:19 <05kate> improving info on what kinds of attacks scale with which stats/skills etc seems probably good here, but things like "each corrupting pulse effect has an independent 8.3% chance to trigger" really doesn't seem like something that's useful to include in mutation descriptions 10:04:19 <06advil> why not? 10:04:39 <05kate> in general i think explaining the basic mechanics of things is helpful, throwing a ton of unhelpful numbers at the player probably isn't 10:05:47 <06advil> I think having at least a rough idea of how likely they are to see the effect is tremendously helpful for new players, actually 10:05:56 <05kate> like, you can't gain anything from that information for corrupting pulse, compared to for aux attacks where you can at least know that improving your skills affects them (even if, as PF points out, you probably shouldn't be training UC for aux attack purposes) 10:06:45 <06advil> do you really think "how often does this trigger" is not helpful? 10:07:02 <06advil> in the case of that one the actual numbers are quite odd of course 10:07:10 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-120-gba4477c (34) 10:07:51 <05kate> i think you could give an idea that it triggers on a small portion of attacks instead of saying it's 8.3% of the time, yeah 10:08:01 <06advil> like, I don't think that knowing it's 8.3 as opposed to approx 1/10 really helps 10:08:12 <06advil> but I also don't know why it's 8.3% instead of 10%, either 10:10:40 <06advil> I don't really agree that numbers are bad here, though I'm open to the fact that other people have definitely had this view; if these numbers had any kind of coarse standardization across effects, I could see using prose paraphrases, but they really, really don't 10:10:40 <05kate> it might just be an arbitrary number, or 1/10 might have felt too strong, i don't think everything needs to be a round number and communicated that way necessarily 10:12:27 <06advil> I also don't think these being present in the mut submenu popups is really in any sense overwhelming players 10:17:18 <10PleasingFungus> oh, hey kate! 10:19:27 <10PleasingFungus> i was meaning to ask you: what do you think about bringing controlled blink back and slapping -Blink onto it, as you did with the Blink spell? It's not as much of a downside there, obviously, but it'd still make power somewhat meaningful (esp if we make -Blink affect ?blink), and it'd be really nice to have an exciting capstone for the translocation school gain 10:19:44 <10PleasingFungus> don't feel like people are as excited by disjunc/the other one 10:23:22 <05kate> i don't think that really works as a downside for cblink in spell form, it'd still just be too reliable and safe an escape 10:23:22 <05kate> i don't feel like that makes for a flashy and exciting capstone, just a powerful and boring one 10:26:28 <10PleasingFungus> it feels very iconic to me 10:26:48 <10PleasingFungus> maybe this is old fogey syndrome on my part 10:26:52 <05kate> lots of iconic stuff was better off removed! 10:26:56 <10PleasingFungus> lol 10:27:22 <10PleasingFungus> well, i'll keep thinking about it 10:27:46 <05kate> i'm definitely all for new exciting tloc stuff, but i don't feel like cblink really fits there 10:28:06 <05kate> (also disjunction is really strong! and it even has a fancy halo effect!) 10:34:01 <10PleasingFungus> i do like fancy halos 11:05:24 <10PleasingFungus> @advil 11:05:25 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/944655928718925914/unknown.png 11:08:03 <10PleasingFungus> not sure whether the accuracy value is actually helpful. goal is just to indicate that to-hit is separate from trigger chance, but the value isn't very meaningful 11:08:03 <10PleasingFungus> could chokoify it, i guess 11:08:06 <10PleasingFungus> turn it into some random pips 11:09:37 <10PleasingFungus> think it'll normally range somewhere between maybe 15 and 50 11:12:15 <06advil> yeah, for that number I'm definitely on the side of "that seems hard to interpret" 11:13:17 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-123-g367c260: Fancy Lua horns description 10(75 minutes ago, 2 files, 11+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/367c2606da39 11:13:17 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-124-g4a5ad23: Dataify aux attack trigger chances 10(12 minutes ago, 4 files, 50+ 40-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4a5ad23f8fea 11:13:17 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-125-gacb06c1: Programmatic aux descriptions 10(38 minutes ago, 7 files, 59+ 33-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/acb06c1eec61 11:14:33 <06advil> pips maybe good if it really is a predictable range? 11:14:35 <10PleasingFungus> maybe just one + for every 10 acc 11:15:00 <06advil> any idea what +++++ (or w/e) means as a probability? 11:15:14 <10PleasingFungus> depends on who you're attacking 🙂 11:15:17 <06advil> heh 11:16:09 <10PleasingFungus> if you get like 70 dex, 27 fighting, eyeballs 3, and 20 slaying, you can get almost 90 acc 11:16:21 <10PleasingFungus> but normally i'd expect it to be much lower 11:24:08 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/944660643070488616/unknown.png 11:24:27 <10PleasingFungus> (this is an unrealistically high accuracy value; i'd expect it to normally be between + and ++++) 11:26:06 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-126-g9ad8076: Call me Pippin 10(74 seconds ago, 1 file, 9+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9ad8076c9fc8 11:27:19 <06advil> fancy 11:27:19 <06advil> when a weapon shows Base accuracy: +4 and so on, is that at all related to these numbers somehow? 11:27:50 <10PleasingFungus> it's the same kind of number as this, yes, though weapon accuracy doesn't affect aux accuracy 11:27:51 <06advil> maybe that's a weapon number 11:28:07 <10PleasingFungus> it's also the same kind of number as, uh 11:28:26 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/944661723380613221/unknown.png 11:28:28 <10PleasingFungus> these EV pips 11:28:38 <06advil> ah interesting 11:29:07 <10PleasingFungus> those pips are each 5, whereas the UC pips are each 10. maybe i should move the UC ones to be 5? hm 11:29:52 <06advil> thanks for taking this and running with it! 11:29:57 <10PleasingFungus> sure, i'm having fun! 🙂 11:30:53 <10PleasingFungus> hm, player to-hit is rolled and ddefender evasion isn't, so i think having the aux pips be twice as large makes them comparable? 12:04:31 03advil02 07* 0.29-a0-121-g8efb068: feat: indicate stateful ?tele behavior in ItemUseMenu 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 16+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8efb068a3042 12:04:34 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-127-g1ad2573: Pip comment 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1ad2573562ee 12:04:34 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-128-g1ec974f: Dataify more mut aux descriptions 10(21 minutes ago, 2 files, 20+ 52-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1ec974f840dc 12:04:34 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-129-g4c7a75b: Tweak Ru eye desc 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4c7a75b87023 12:04:34 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-130-g4d3a05d: Trim Jiyva mut descriptions 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4d3a05d59896 12:04:34 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-131-g208279a: Dataify retaliatory headbutt description 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 34+ 32-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/208279a2f93e 12:04:34 03PleasingFungus02 07[pf_draft_mut_despoiler] * 0.29-a0-132-gaac7ee5: More mut description tweaks 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aac7ee5cabb9 12:05:49 <10PleasingFungus> !time 12:05:49 <04Cerebot> Time: Feb 19, 2022, 07:05:01 PM, UTC. The 2022 0.28 tournament ends in 1 day, 0 hour, 54 minutes and 58 seconds. 12:05:49 <06advil> er, UseItemMenu 12:18:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-121-g8efb068a30 (34) 13:27:09 <08nicolae> singularity 13:29:23 <08nicolae> i have a friend who would like singularity back and so on his behalf i will advocate for bringing it back every so often 13:34:19 <10PleasingFungus> gonna veto that 16:02:46 <08nicolae> i figured but i have to. for my friend. 16:02:46 <08nicolae> what about doublearity. 16:10:37 <10PleasingFungus> tell me more about doublearity 16:10:45 <08nicolae> well, it's singularity... but double 16:14:26 New branch created: unrand-lookup (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/unrand-lookup 16:14:26 03PleasingFungus02 07[unrand-lookup] * 0.29-a0-121-g7db8840: Allow looking up unrands in ?/I 10(5 minutes ago, 3 files, 45+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7db88400ef57 16:15:32 <10PleasingFungus> i'm seeing double... two singularities?! 16:15:32 <08nicolae> no no no, not two singularities. one doublearity. geeeeez 16:21:55 <10PleasingFungus> the rarity of a doublearity implies great scarity 16:23:15 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-121-g8efb068a30 (34) 16:29:09 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering when you split deep elf mages into zephyrmancers/pyromancers, did you remember that deep elf mages were actually the result of Grunt merging two earlier monsters back in 0.18? 16:29:20 <10PleasingFungus> (deep elf conjurers & deep elf summoners.) 16:29:29 <10PleasingFungus> sort of funny... merged & then split again. the beautiful dance... 17:40:39 <08nicolae> bring back conjurers and summoners 17:41:54 the backgrounds, not the elfs 17:42:15 <08nicolae> no i mean the elfs 17:42:51 yeah but the backgrounds are already added so it'd be like your request was instantly granted 19:51:18 <10PleasingFungus> @advil did you see https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/swbnbb/remove_dark_bars/ ? extremely cool (esp because someone already answered their question) 20:18:44 <04‡※ of brine bricolage> ...I can't lie, I'm still holding onto years-old paragraphs of write-ups for deep elf summoner-priests 20:18:44 what on earth is a ‡※ of brine bricolage 20:21:22 <12‡※ of aphotic spite> someone older than anybody who has to ask that 20:22:17 spooky 22:18:26 yaknow how first-to-ascend is now a bragging-rights category and not a scored one? maybe somewhere the website could make a bragging-rights-note of now many times a player was the first to lock in a given nemchoice 22:42:01 <12ebering> I had a vague notion 22:46:32 <10PleasingFungus> deep elves just a high churn monster type 22:46:40 <10PleasingFungus> i remember deep elf fighters… 23:34:49 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-121-g8efb068a30 (34) 23:36:37 New branch created: pull/2432 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2432 23:36:37 03RojjaCebolla02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2432 * 0.29-a0-122-gc70b359: Onboarding: set hp_colour to higher defaults 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c70b3598d7be 23:56:17 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-121-g8efb068a30