00:34:50 <08w​ormsofcan> oh, is that the reason there was a player earlier that had 5* piety with max curses? 00:44:12 <05k​ate> could well be yeah, i can't grab the save but i added a comment to the github issue asking if they cursed things in the abyss 00:44:12 <05k​ate> it would explain it going back to full piety on them reloading the game too 00:45:42 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1510-gd0f6b136d3 01:35:21 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4 02:17:42 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 04:23:18 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4 08:06:34 not to be impatient, but it'd be a bit nice to get this feat merged before the freeze. Ever since configuring my autopickup to not grab certain rings depending on my class, the bug this fixes has been really bothering me. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2310 08:07:35 Specifically I have stuff like magic-based rings marked as autopickup exceptions, but as-is this is ignored 09:21:20 03Kiëd Llaentenn02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2356 * 0.28-a0-1506-ga65ea37: fix: shorten and simplify orb flavor descriptions 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a65ea37dae7e 10:44:46 <10P​leasingFungus> cool trivia: we still have item menu code to support throwable weapons (daggers, spears, etc) 11:34:36 lol, blink_brightens_background works on putty 11:36:04 and here I was thinking that option was irrelevant in the modern age 11:36:18 it does mean that there's a way to get almost 16,16 colours in putty without players messing with TERM though (I say almost because something odd is going on with darkgrey background via blink with a white foreground) 11:38:14 also G-Flex_ It's possible that you didn't get darkgrey working yet, because it's much darker in my putty testing than in your screenshot 11:38:34 advil: I changed the color value I mentioned and the change definitely took effect 11:38:40 ah ok 11:38:44 I am curious why the "wandering" background turned bold/bright yellow 11:38:55 huh, I wasn't aware of that 11:38:56 before I changed term type it was the uh, darker/paler color, the browner one? 11:39:02 and now it's eye-searing 11:39:12 it shouldn't, can you give me a screenshot? 11:39:13 btw it turns out I lightened dark grey to begin with because it's used for text in a lot of menus 11:39:30 sure, one minute 11:39:39 my rcfile is ancient so god only knows what I've done wrong in it 11:39:48 I think on the default coloring darkgrey should only be used for unusable items in menus? 11:41:00 https://www.dreamsleeve.org/img/crawl-bright-yellow.png 11:42:29 I could also check my putty settings in case I goofed those up 11:42:29 I have "Allow terminal to specify ANSI colours", "Allow terminal to use xterm 256-colour mode", and "Allow terminal to use 24-bit colours" all checked 11:42:34 and Terminal-type string is putty-256color 11:45:13 yeah, I can confirm that's what's happening by default for monsters that are normally white fg 11:45:26 and white on putty's yellow is particularly bad 11:45:39 yeah white on pure yellow is awful 11:45:45 I'm not sure why it wasn't doing this before I changed terminal type though 11:45:58 maybe it wasn't bolding background colors? but why you'd bold a bg color to begin with I don't know. 11:46:23 G-Flex_: yes, you were only getting 8 bg colors before 11:46:43 it's kind of bad on other terminals too, it's just I guess people who have had 16 colors on for a while (e.g. me) got used to it 11:46:52 I feel like you'd want the bg to be non-bold if the fg is bold 11:47:04 but maybe the fg color should be `brown` and not `yellow` 11:47:12 for wandering monsters 11:47:18 you mean bg? 11:47:22 yeah, sorry 11:48:55 yeah I always assumed that was what it was supposed to be, and rarely had issues with it 11:48:55 dumb question: is there really a reason to support putty's crappy default TERM setting and not just say "set your TERM to something sane to play crawl on console putty"? 11:48:55 well we are kind of saying that 11:48:55 heck, my /calculator/ has more colors than putty's default $TERM definition does 11:48:55 I forget what it was set to before but it wasn't this, lol 11:48:56 it was set to yellow, but in 8 color mode, yellow bg renders the same as brown 11:49:09 I mean my term string 11:49:20 ah, `xterm` is the default for putty, I was able to confirm that 11:49:26 yeah I think it was that 11:49:50 perryprog: but I think it's also good to give people some help given that putty is so common (adjusting for base rate) 11:49:56 Fair 11:50:20 <10P​leasingFungus> @hellmonk probably a dumb question: is it still important for red devils to have polearms as their "signature weapon", meaning they'll never swap to a non-polearm? 11:50:34 You could also probably display a warning on startup if putty + TERM=xterm (someone tell through environment variables I guess? I don't have Windows) 11:50:50 s/someone/somehow 11:51:01 I'm working on a diagnostic popup for this stuff that'll have something like that 11:51:08 Nice 11:51:42 <06a​dvil> // hint for the putty users: if (info.term == "xterm") s += "For 16 colours, try setting a better TERM value than `xterm`, e.g. `xterm-256color` (most terminals) or `putty-256color` (for PuTTY).\n"; 11:52:13 It's good you're writing that because I would have said "a normal TERM value" (/s) 11:57:24 such magnanimity 11:57:30 what service! 12:24:42 <09h​ellmonk> seems to make their use of barbs af more distinct, but probably not 13:04:25 <10P​leasingFungus> also, nice av 13:31:30 New branch created: pull/2360 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2360 13:31:31 03Diego Essaya02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2360 * 0.28-a0-1511-g8589bf8: fix: click + key modifier detection in tiles 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 5+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8589bf88f321 13:51:53 <10P​leasingFungus> hm, trying to figure out what the right ui for ranged weapons is once they no longer use ammo. Currently considering two options: (1) In the quiver code, create a virtual ammo object and (f)ire that as at present. Feels quite bad from a code perspective. (2) Use the same (v) code as is used by polearms and other weapons to fire launchers. Quite straightforward, but it's rather surprising for existing players that (f) would no 13:51:53 longer (f)ire a bow or sling. 13:52:25 <10P​leasingFungus> could also swap bindings around, but that feels like an even bigger mess 13:54:57 <10P​leasingFungus> (3) have (f) follow a completely independent codepath (that is, firing rather than using the quiver) if you're wielding a ranged weapon 13:55:05 <10P​leasingFungus> and maybe have an option to enable that behaviour, off by default? 13:55:29 <10P​leasingFungus> think i'll probably do that for now 14:06:01 <05k​ate> how would launchers work in this implementation? i feel like using the quiver is best since that's kind of what it's there for, i guess it depends to some extent on whether you still have to wield them or not maybe 14:06:39 apropros quiver: some more functionality for quick-switching what you have quivered (besides just ]) might be nice 14:08:17 <10P​leasingFungus> i'm confused; 'how launchers work' is what i was describing 14:08:33 <10P​leasingFungus> the option i'm leaning toward, (2), would make launchers fire when you press (v) 14:08:58 <10P​leasingFungus> (the wielded launcher, that is - you still have to wield them) 14:09:16 <05k​ate> that's what i wasn't sure about yeah, whether they'd be like wands or like polearms 14:09:18 <10P​leasingFungus> right 14:10:43 <10P​leasingFungus> my feeling is that they'd still suck, but that it'd be a step toward removal 14:10:43 <10P​leasingFungus> and probably a somewhat better experience in the meanwhile 14:11:21 <05k​ate> hmm, i guess i don't know if "brokenly overpowered" is better than "brokenly overpowered but people don't use them because the interface is bad", i feel like skipping the step and going straight to removal might still be safer 14:12:30 <10P​leasingFungus> my plan was to increase delay some 14:13:02 <10P​leasingFungus> think it's very possible to make them not brokenly overpowered if the numbers line up right 14:13:57 <05k​ate> ah that sounds reasonable to try yeah, i'm definitely not opposed to trying to make them work better with a non-painful interface 14:17:10 <05k​ate> high delay could be a good place to start tuning since at least it means you're spending multiple turns on them for something with no other cost, compared to stuff with costs like wands/spells 14:17:10 <10P​leasingFungus> happy to hear opinions on delay numbers; i hadn't settled on anything concrete 14:17:10 <10P​leasingFungus> i think in the long run launchers probably still go but i think full removal sparks little joy in players. and i do like sparking joy from time to time 14:17:45 <05k​ate> wonder if abstracting away the wield requirement and having them just be quivered items but then bumping the delay up even further would help too. i feel like part of the problem is pretty much everything that improves the interface also makes them even more clearly just "free full-LOS damage", though 14:18:15 <10P​leasingFungus> i don't really want every player to have free infinite access to full LOS damage 14:18:42 <10P​leasingFungus> right now you can toss some rocks, or you can use some limited supply evocables/throwables (which we've been paring down aggressively) 14:18:53 <05k​ate> right, but the problem is they sort of currently do (and would do with a wield requirement too, it's just fiddlier) 14:19:10 <10P​leasingFungus> mm 14:19:20 <10P​leasingFungus> unless you're with ash, or have a contam weapon, etc 😛 14:19:22 <10P​leasingFungus> but yeah 14:20:41 <12e​bering> I've been mulling range-scaling w/skill 14:20:49 <12e​bering> so that a 0 skill launcher is no better than a pole arm 14:20:59 <12e​bering> combined with the wield requirement that makes it not worth it 14:21:11 <12e​bering> (feeling a bit more able to think today) 14:23:33 <10P​leasingFungus> oh good! prayin with u 14:23:33 <10P​leasingFungus> range scaling with skill is very cute 14:23:33 <12e​bering> wasn't blinkitis an old badmut 14:23:52 <05k​ate> i don't think so, it used to just be a good mut for innate blink ability 14:24:09 <05k​ate> and wispform had blinkitis, which was absolutely awful 14:24:25 <10P​leasingFungus> there was the red imp experimental species 14:24:31 <10P​leasingFungus> but maybe that just had teleportitis too 14:24:31 you're thinking of teleportitis I think?? 14:24:57 <10P​leasingFungus> to be clear, we're responding to https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361, which just got posted in the discord by the git webhook 14:26:55 huh. have to admit I've never thought that much about teleportitis when I've had it. removed it usually when I had a chance, but it was an annoyance rather than a problem 90% of the time 14:28:14 <05k​ate> i don't think it particularly falls into the category of "run-ending mutations" (on top of that category not existing and the claimed problem not being a problem in the first place), yeah 14:28:29 <12e​bering> "no counterplay" is a design shibbolith for a group of players whose analysis refuses to consider preparation counterplay 14:29:31 New branch created: pull/2361 (5 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361 14:29:33 03Oneirical02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361 * 0.28-a0-1511-ga0c3382: feat: replace MUT_TELEPORT with MUT_BLINKITIS 10(56 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a0c338215eec 14:29:33 03Oneirical02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361 * 0.28-a0-1512-gbeeb507: feat: ban Blinkitis for treeform/formicids, allow in Sprint 10(55 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/beeb5074c78e 14:29:33 03Oneirical02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361 * 0.28-a0-1513-gbc2ab87: feat: archive MUT_TELEPORT, add flavour messages 10(45 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bc2ab8700efa 14:29:33 03Oneirical02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361 * 0.28-a0-1514-gfba1a1c: feat: remove random teleport from MUT_TELEPORT 10(43 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fba1a1cae89d 14:29:33 03Oneirical02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2361 * 0.28-a0-1515-g215ac31: feat: implement Blinkitis with the same logic as Deterioration 10(24 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/215ac310fe79 14:30:02 <12e​bering> e.g. "paralysis is bad because it has no counterplay" 14:30:02 <12e​bering> in contrast to "paralysis is good because the only possible counterplay is before it takes effect" 14:30:02 <10P​leasingFungus> shibboleth is a great word that i should use more often 14:30:02 <10P​leasingFungus> it's a shibboleth for people who like biblical references 14:30:21 <10P​leasingFungus> imo frail is a run-ending mutation (because it may cause you to run out of hp) 14:30:54 * perryprog was about to mention that I felt like *Slow was triggering less than it should before realizing I've been playing Fo 14:30:55 frai doesn't bother me much either.but then I usually play ^hep 14:31:12 *frail 14:31:18 Eh, the armor -ac one is pretty rough 14:31:48 but I've never had a mutation that by itself (except maybe "armor fits weirdly") that would make me want to try to quaff it away 14:34:15 <10P​leasingFungus> ooh, nice abyss fixes! 14:34:16 <05k​ate> can anyone with cue save file access take a look at https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/2358 ? pretty sure that commit fixes it and !lm suggests they were in the abyss recently, just need to see if that's when they cursed their gear 14:34:43 <05k​ate> and yeah, i really hope nobody sacrificed a hand to ru in the abyss recently 14:34:58 <10P​leasingFungus> kate, did you see the skeral thing? 14:34:59 <10P​leasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/932025091708051516/unknown.png 14:35:02 <10P​leasingFungus> it's very funny to me 14:35:14 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1511-g0647d93: Refactor piety gain prevention in the Abyss 10(40 minutes ago, 7 files, 76+ 59-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0647d9364eca 14:36:28 <05k​ate> nice, comparable to my pro strat of dueling monsters in the abyss to get xp from them 14:36:28 <10P​leasingFungus> (this seems enormously impractical but definitely funny) 14:39:29 <05k​ate> and yeah, seems doubtful that you'd gain more than you lose by kiting stuff to an exit repeatedly 14:39:36 <09h​ellmonk> Less pudding farming and more pudding intensive horticulture 14:40:27 pudding farming is a skill based mechanic 14:40:53 I do think it was funny that one response by the NH dev team to why pudding farming wasn't a big deal was because the punishment was... having to do pudding farming. 14:41:11 <10P​leasingFungus> it was a very cute answer 14:41:12 <10P​leasingFungus> wrong, but cute 14:41:15 Yeah 14:41:20 <05k​ate> it gets quoted a lot and it's a good comparison of design philosophies, yeah 14:42:54 <10P​leasingFungus> of course, modern nethack removed pudding farming anyway 14:45:43 <12e​bering> someone in a recent abyss thread tried to ascribe the quote to us 14:46:00 <12e​bering> > What's the line - "The punishment for grinding the Abyss is grinding the Abyss"? 14:49:48 Apropos nothing: am I correct in saying that a melee Usk player has essentially no reason to use a weapon besides axes? 14:50:12 !source did_hurt_conduct 14:50:12 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/god-conduct.cc#L1129 14:50:32 <12e​bering> no? 14:50:39 Despite there being oops, wrong function 14:50:54 !source _handle_uskayaw_piety 14:50:54 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player-reacts.cc#L358 14:51:37 Despite there being the max(num_hurt, [...]), I have never found it feasible for even skilled long blade users to be able to outpace piety gain of axes 14:54:07 <12e​bering> loot (esp before joining a god), species apts, and desire to take advantage of stabbing opportunities afforded by usk all influence the decision 14:56:11 My concern is that cleaving gives significantly faster piety gain than high single-target damage 14:56:15 I'm not sure if I'm correct, though 14:59:09 <12e​bering> well, if you cleave 8 targets you get 8 for num hurt 14:59:28 <12e​bering> and the hurt value is the total damage done 15:00:00 Gah 15:00:16 Yeah so I'm totally wrong, then. Sorry. 15:00:17 <12e​bering> so the max is usually going to be selecting the damage, even with the stepdown 15:00:29 Right 15:02:04 Or wait, if the hurt value is total damage done, that means it's still affected by cleaving 15:02:04 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1511-g0647d9364e (34) 15:02:04 Since the total damage that an ideal cleaving will do (and I suspect even a cleave on two opponents versus a single-target attack with another weapon against one) might be higher 15:02:04 <12e​bering> yes 15:02:18 So that means ultimately axes will (not including one-on-one situations) give higher piety gain? 15:02:39 <12e​bering> I'm not sure what you're getting at 15:02:45 That feels weird to me. 15:03:17 <12e​bering> why? 15:03:28 I would expect as a player that I could do "generally" as well with Usk with any weapon, regardless of its special abilities 15:03:51 <12e​bering> I'm really having hard time understanding what you're getting at? 15:03:57 <12e​bering> Usk's conduct is: you gain piety for doin damage 15:03:57 Instead, it seems like if you're playing Usk that it rarely makes sense to use anything but axes 15:04:03 <12e​bering> axes cleave means more damage 15:04:11 <12e​bering> BUT 15:04:19 <12e​bering> if you can melee a monster it can melee you back 15:04:46 hm true 15:12:50 Also: should Usk's prepare audience really have a chance to trigger as close together as what looks like 300 auts? That seems a bit extreme. I also think I'm misunderstanding what causes prepare audience to actually trigger. _Uskayaw prepares the audience for your solo! / [...]/ _Duvessa is heavily wounded. / [...] _Duvessa is no longer paralysed. / [...] / _Uskayaw prepares the audience for your solo! 15:14:59 I've been playing Usk characters almost exclusively for over the last week and I /still/ feel confused when I have prepare audience trigger twice in succession—hence why I'm bringing it up 15:22:13 Oh, it is me misunderstanding what causes it to trigger—it's random chance based on how long it's been since it's last been triggered 15:22:20 I thought it was a timer with a random length. 15:22:32 * perryprog should stick to bugfixes 15:44:04 <05k​ate> it was very funny that the scary message of "really attempt to enter this malign gateway? there's no telling what horrifying things it will do to you!!!" was then followed by "you take 2 damage and blink", rip to that 15:45:58 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1512-g142ac7c: Don't use Malign Gateways as walls for Creeping Frost (#2359) 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/142ac7cd7379 15:45:58 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1513-ge4f4046: Don't allow attempting to enter Malign Gateway portals 10(12 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 39-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e4f40463031f 15:48:25 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1513-ge4f4046303 (34) 16:14:26 <10P​leasingFungus> @kate ty for fixing the creeping frost thing! you keep implementing all my TODO fixes before i get to them... at this rate i'll have none left! 16:16:48 <05k​ate> ah heh, np, i was just scanning github issues looking for low-hanging fruit 16:21:26 <10P​leasingFungus> i should look at gh issues someday 16:21:36 <10P​leasingFungus> i just see these things coming in on discord 16:21:41 <10P​leasingFungus> happy that people are reporting em! we've trained em well 16:23:33 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.28-a0-1513-ge4f4046303 (34) 17:38:58 does anyone know how TERM gets determined for webtiles underlying terminals 18:40:10 New branch created: pull/2364 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2364 18:40:10 03Aliscans02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2364 * 0.28-a0-1514-ge1ae3c4: Create an option to control how a highlighted menu row is shown. 10(3 minutes ago, 4 files, 74+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e1ae3c469357 18:40:10 03Aliscans02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2364 * 0.28-a0-1515-g9df3884: Make space toggle the selected item in shop menus. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9df38846b879 19:56:29 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1514-g3e5f175: feat: support background colors in formatted_string 10(70 minutes ago, 6 files, 180+ 68-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3e5f17529fdd 19:56:29 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1515-g81556d0: feat: color/display diagnostic popup 10(43 minutes ago, 6 files, 186+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/81556d0073cd 19:56:29 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1516-g37088b3: fix: tweak hover color for 8 color consoles 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/37088b3766e0 19:56:29 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1517-g020f416: fix: revert main menu hover changes 10(3 minutes ago, 3 files, 9+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/020f4162166a 20:01:02 <10P​leasingFungus> incredible advil power 20:05:25 he's committing like a wrecking ball 20:07:37 I could not for the life of me figure out where the background color for monster awareness state is set or configured 20:07:58 does anyone know? 20:08:59 <12e​bering> iirc it goes by brand in the code 20:09:01 <12e​bering> sleep_brand 20:11:53 thanks, turns out to be `may_stab_brand` 20:12:01 that name could maybe use some work 20:12:58 and I wasn't finding the code because it's incredibly low level 20:13:47 and stored in a really odd way 20:14:31 <12e​bering> yeah, I remember doing this hunt once 20:22:02 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1518-gbe868bc: fix: tone down default `may_stab_brand` (G-flex) 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/be868bca14da 20:23:17 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1517-g020f416216 (34) 20:32:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1518-gbe868bca14 (34) 21:20:46 Thanks for the quick response on that 23:35:17 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1518-gbe868bca14 (34) 23:56:29 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1518-gbe868bca14