00:54:41 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1447-ga5a8893891 00:57:18 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1447-ga5a8893891 (34) 01:34:13 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 01:34:13 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 01:42:14 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4 02:17:39 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 04:23:16 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4 04:24:44 <11nikheizen> fr: ds stinger mutation mentions that level 3 knocks your cloak off 04:26:45 actually I;m surprised spines doesn't already do that 05:32:25 fr: ds something mutation that knocks your socks off 05:32:38 Wait that's cloven feet. 08:33:07 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1448-gc586ae7: fix: clarify shallow water's effect on large movement 10(63 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c586ae71bd82 08:33:08 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1449-ga049f03: feat: some bound Donald dialog 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a049f037fa37 08:33:08 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1450-gb131497: fix: ensure Mennas never speaks across attitude changes 10(83 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b13149701749 08:34:19 <10PleasingFungus> hm 08:34:53 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering that description is iirc right for large monsters but not for large players 08:35:08 <12ebering> argh 08:35:11 <10PleasingFungus> lol 08:35:13 <12ebering> can we buff large races in shallow water 08:35:16 <12ebering> will it hurt 08:35:29 <10PleasingFungus> i vaguely want to nerf large monsters 08:35:32 <10PleasingFungus> instead 08:36:08 <12ebering> well, I went with the desc change because fumbling is used for both movement and attack modification in water/liquefied ground 08:36:11 <10PleasingFungus> i tried to do that a few months ago but it needed a lil refactoring 08:36:29 <12ebering> you could just bump the size inequality up! 08:36:57 <12ebering> imo conditioning fumbling and slow water movement separately is fiddly for little gameplay gain 08:37:03 <10PleasingFungus> the monster change, i mean 08:37:14 <10PleasingFungus> player change is easier 08:38:44 <10PleasingFungus> my vague feeling is that we have few tactical terrain features in crawl, and it’s a pity for og, na, tr and pa to completely ignore the most common one 08:39:08 <10PleasingFungus> agreed that separating fumbling and movement is fiddly, though 08:44:20 take heed! important pun+qol idea: items that fall into deep water migrate to the Abyss 08:44:48 Slime pits could have sticky floors that double movement cost but don't affect to hit 08:45:04 I've been in nightclubs like that 08:45:11 Ewwwwwwwwwww 08:45:11 ww-keys deactivated 08:47:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oqxpjae2Dw 08:47:35 I'd regale you with tales of the Slimelight but it might be a bit completely offtopic 08:47:36 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1450-gb131497017 (34) 08:49:07 This is much less feasible/crawl-like/good, but could also have increments of deep grassy/vegetation in lair that cost proportionally more movement for each level 08:49:37 Mindless monsters could pathfind "worse" through it compared to intelligent ones 08:49:50 But I don't really like that because of the extra complexity for little reason 09:24:02 03Aliscans02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1451-g2965a4d: refactor: split DNGN_ENTER_HELL into one feature per destination 10(3 months ago, 19 files, 113+ 35-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2965a4dc4281 09:24:02 03Aliscans02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1452-ga2056f7: fix: remove references to Hell from feat_is_branch_entrance() 10(3 months ago, 7 files, 15+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a2056f7337a4 09:24:02 03Aliscans02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1453-g9084b0a: fix: remove references to Hell from feat_is_branch_exit() 10(3 months ago, 5 files, 10+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9084b0ae73da 09:30:25 03Zhang Kai02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1454-g374218e: text: update Chinese translations of ability.txt 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 463+ 214-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/374218e70b81 09:30:25 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1455-g78a2654: text: update some Yred translation keys 10(22 seconds ago, 9 files, 16+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/78a2654a0853 09:34:08 <08nicolae> while you're doing pull requests i have one that should be merged (pan improvement) 09:35:51 <12ebering> the power is yours! (but I can take a review pass if you want eyes) 09:36:53 03Perry Fraser02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1456-gaeb352d: fix: skip title on tiles integration tests 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aeb352d00ff7 09:40:50 <10PleasingFungus> thanks for going through all these PRs! doing zin's work 🙏 09:46:17 <08nicolae> it's the controversial pan bazaar vault, i was mostly goofin https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2260 09:46:51 <12ebering> it should get a chance to live before 10runecrawl ruins the demonic rune forever 09:46:53 <12ebering> imo 09:47:02 <08nicolae> 10 rune crawl... what... 09:48:29 <12ebering> an idea I've been kicking around: 1 sbranch (roll from among all four), abyss, vaults, slime, tomb, elf (or salt!!?), 4 hell or 4 pan 09:48:44 <12ebering> need to go to a finite-pan model first probably 09:48:57 <08nicolae> well you need to keep demonic rune in there somehow 09:50:53 <12ebering> its more an aspirational vision than a concrete plan at this point 09:50:53 <08nicolae> there are currently 19 existing runes, add 8 more, 27-rune games 09:50:53 <08nicolae> "nicolae that's crazy" yes 09:50:57 <12ebering> gotta do it with roulette 09:51:04 <12ebering> a 27 rune game would be to long 09:51:30 <08nicolae> rebalance the game around 27 runes. on average you should get one each XL 09:51:45 <08nicolae> arrival rune 09:51:51 <08nicolae> temple rune 09:52:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1453-g9084b0ae73 (34) 09:53:33 the prune rune, a guaranteed rune placed randomly somewhere. but it's also Prune 09:55:20 <08nicolae> spicycebolla you are a genius 09:55:34 <08nicolae> fr: rework Glaive of Prune into Glaive of Rune, counts as a rune 09:56:05 03Nikolai Lavsky02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1457-gd6a3831: feat: display potion/scroll rarity on the item knowledge screen 10(2 weeks ago, 3 files, 29+ 15-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d6a3831c70a4 09:57:18 <10PleasingFungus> ooh, that's a good feat (new \ rarity display) 09:58:30 that's a hot broguey commit, nj 09:59:35 (in that it's similar to https://imgur.com/5a672FB.png ) 10:02:16 <12ebering> hm so we should be thinking about a feature freeze soon-ish yes? 10:02:28 03Goratrix02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-1458-g66ff004: fix: small tweaks to crystal spear projectile tiles 10(77 seconds ago, 8 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/66ff00425e7e 10:03:33 <12ebering> I saw PF suggest Jan 16 10:08:27 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1457-gd6a3831c70 (34) 10:17:36 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1458-g66ff00425e (34) 10:31:54 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1458-g66ff004 (34) 10:56:22 all the PR merges. Thanks, ebering! 12:43:00 <05kate> oh nice, i'd been meaning to do that rarity display on \ when i implemented the rarities in the first place, must've forgotten about it along the way somewhere 12:43:28 <13Sastreii> mad mage's maulers and throatcutter 12:43:28 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/930185091064422460/Schermata_2022-01-10_alle_20.39.54.png 12:43:29 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/930185091290923069/unrands.zip 12:44:02 <05kate> also i wonder if i can squeeze in cutting a floor from lair before whenever feature freeze happens 12:44:18 Nooo they are cutting my floors 12:45:07 <05kate> back to not having much dev time for a bit so maybe i won't get to it, but that's the last big thing i'd been hoping to do for 0.28 i think 12:45:56 <05kate> well, that and speed 11 monsters/speed 9 players, but that should probably wait for 0.29 now 12:54:41 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1459-gdc4cd7e: fix: don't scan for unlinked items midway through abyss vault generation 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dc4cd7eb338e 13:02:27 huh that commit is somewhat worrying 13:03:17 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1459-gdc4cd7eb33 (34) 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1460-g370c310: fix: modernize some inventory code 10(8 days ago, 1 file, 4+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/370c3107d9b5 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1461-g84980b0: fix: adjust shop keyhelp 10(8 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/84980b0d82ac 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1462-g95bfa34: feat: clean up and generalize menu keyhelp code 10(7 days ago, 2 files, 80+ 35-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/95bfa34988a4 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1463-g20fba0d: refactor: simplify drop ui 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 14+ 144-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/20fba0d42025 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1464-gcdc11d4: refactor: remove `easy_quit_item_prompts` (wheals) 10(6 days ago, 4 files, 3+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cdc11d469792 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1465-gb5dea8a: feat: arrow key controls for item menus 10(5 hours ago, 18 files, 469+ 236-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b5dea8a184d5 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1466-g30118fc: fix: remove old cursor code 10(4 hours ago, 11 files, 34+ 111-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/30118fcd2b4d 13:07:41 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1467-g1e88248: fix: update acquire menu to work with item menu changes 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 46+ 38-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1e88248612e0 13:28:54 04Build failed for 08master @ 1e882486 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1679249428 13:29:33 "Floating point exception" 13:30:47 the universe crashes with a divide by zero exception… 13:35:18 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1467-g1e88248612 (34) 13:35:19 whatever that is isn't happening locally for me 13:41:16 advil happens for me 13:41:16 using tiles local 13:41:16 Specifically with ./crawl -rc test/stress/woken_rest.rc -sprint -sprint-map dungeon_sprint_1 13:41:39 https://gist.github.com/c3645cf69d8a0f2b286e8d77f9f37cf3 13:43:36 thanks, it's probably a gcc vs clang difference 13:45:57 * geekosaur hears clang, pulls and builds 13:47:44 I think it might be a flakey crash 13:47:44 -ish 13:48:16 it looks like it's crashing on an empty inventory 13:48:30 but it's possible it's a crash that would only happen in automated mode 13:49:38 the second to last line in the message log is "Chose main temple nicolae_temple_great_sept, size 14" 13:49:43 need I say more 13:52:07 or any item menu, at least on cko 13:52:13 wonder what happened to crash reports 13:52:43 <12ebering> https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/particleface/crash-particleface-20220110-204429.txt 13:52:45 <12ebering> for reference 13:54:13 Thanks, was installing gdb to get that info; I normally use lldb. 13:57:52 04Build failed for 08master @ 1e882486 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1679249428 13:58:47 huh, getting unlinked items in the standard output dumped from when I killed the tests 13:59:25 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1468-g6790c33: fix: don't divide by 0 in keyhelp rendering 10(86 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6790c33dfa81 14:00:42 !lm adviltest 14:00:42 239. [2021-12-21 16:16:33] adviltest the Skirmisher (L1 HOFi) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 14:00:42 it seems a bit like all crashes online are recursive crashes now? 14:00:42 !lm * crash 14:00:42 25340. [2021-12-29 03:15:45] ebering the Covert (L7 KoWn) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 425: screen write out of bounds in region 3 (old: 3): (68,8) into (33,17) (D:4) 14:00:45 (which will keep them from generating milestones) 14:00:49 !lm * crash trunk 14:01:42 advil didn't fix it. https://gist.github.com/perryprog/f96ab9d95945ebd653a6a17ea4ad5089 14:01:49 19226. [2021-12-29 03:15:45] ebering the Covert (L7 KoWn) ERROR in 'libutil.cc' at line 425: screen write out of bounds in region 3 (old: 3): (68,8) into (33,17) (D:4) 14:02:30 perryprog if you mean my commit just now, you seem to be on the wrong version 14:02:39 o.0 14:03:02 thought I recompiled, guess not 14:03:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1468-g6790c33dfa (34) 14:04:28 Yeah, no crash now. Sorry about that. 14:05:30 I wonder why gcc doesn't crash on that 14:20:06 if you mean why clang doesn't crash, it never crashes on divide by 0 14:20:56 rather, it just gives 0 14:20:59 iirc the spec indicates that that case is actually undefined behavior 14:21:15 the c++ spec that is, IEEE floats are different 14:21:23 that's both cool and uncool, clang! 14:30:09 advil clang /does/ crash—that's what I was using 14:30:40 maybe version-dependent? 14:30:48 clang --version 14:30:50 er 14:31:04 `Apple clang version 13.0.0 (clang-1300.0.29.30)` 14:31:13 I've definitely hit this issue before, so it's not new 14:31:14 Same here 🤔 14:36:00 puzzling 14:36:08 I would *like* to get clang to crash in that case 14:36:20 there's some experimental -f option but it didn't work for me 14:36:21 Regarding PR https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2301 , ebering kindly left a comment about how creating constants for each weight is not appropriate crawl style, and suggested refactoring mut_data from an array to a map to group mut defs 14:36:52 I'm not quite sure how to do that - can anyone help clarify this? 14:38:09 03Aliscans02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1469-g8b0d500: feat: mark identify scrolls as useless once everything is identified. 10(6 weeks ago, 4 files, 44+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8b0d500728a6 14:38:09 03Aliscans02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-1470-g841984c: fix: stop artefact amulets of faith from flashing on first worshipping Gozag 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/841984c3b683 14:39:30 advil, it looks like the ?acq dialog is janky on tiles localhttps://i.imghurr.com/e/w4GNMLo7KN.png 14:39:39 https://i.imghurr.com/e/w4GNMLo7KN.png 14:39:41 <12ebering> you'd replace the array with something of type static map 14:39:43 <10PleasingFungus> probably worth noting that the full phrase was: > If you want to be able to move the mutation_defs to group them, you'll need to refactor mut_data from an array to a map. Probably not worth the effort. 14:40:24 <12ebering> and then edit every function that uses the array mut_data to use the methods of std::map instead for access 14:40:41 My fear is that if I leave it as a comment, when adjusting weights you would need to update the weight itself, and then update the comment, doubling the work 14:41:09 you could make a shell script that parses the mutation-data and puts it in a text table summary? 14:41:20 ahh, so it would be more than just editing mutations-data.h at that point 14:41:24 <12ebering> yes 14:41:33 <12ebering> thats why I said Probably not worth the effort 14:41:35 <10PleasingFungus> there are only 10 uses, fwiw 14:41:42 <12ebering> wow 10 is big 14:41:44 <10PleasingFungus> haha 14:42:12 <12ebering> (I had no idea but I assumed it was bigger than 2 which is my limit for suggesting someone else do such a refactor) 14:42:37 spicyCebolla - True, that would be useful, but then would the expecation be that someone run the shell script each time? 14:43:24 <12ebering> the comment is there for helping someone who's looking to change them reason about the current weights 14:43:44 <12ebering> we're pretty good about keeping these sorts of things up to date, but also they're not super important 14:43:51 <12ebering> since they don't change all that often 14:44:07 <12ebering> IMO you could get away with a comment indicating that good muts and bad muts have total weight 100 each 14:44:36 03robertxgray02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-1471-g981f6e2: fix: check negative energy resistance when casting vampiric drain 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/981f6e296fc4 14:45:50 And manually adjust the weights myself (for now) -- it would be nice for there to be some code that checked for compliance. Is that doable 14:45:50 <12ebering> again, not super important to have that kind of weight validation 14:45:51 Hmm, the issue is that there's no clear distinction between generic muts (that almost anyone can recieve) and non generic muts. Okay, I see. 14:47:07 it kinda doesn't really add up to 100 because a given character might be ineligible for some of them 14:47:53 There are also race-specific muts e.g. tonga and naga that will have extra weight that throws it off, yeah 14:48:25 Still, for like a human it would be accurate in terms of abosolute percentages 14:50:45 <05kate> trying to standardise weights particularly strictly and keep comments about them up-to-date tends to be a futile effort, i think consumable weights already got changed and their comment is out of date now since the recent refactor there 14:52:15 <05kate> since it's more important to make the weights do the thing that they're supposed to do than it is for all the numbers to look nice 14:52:15 <05kate> (and relatedly i don't particularly see any benefit from the PR related to that for scroll/potion rarities) 14:54:50 if you mean my PR, it was semi joking ^_^ 14:54:52 Like ebering said, the comment is there for helping someone who's looking to change them reason about the current weights. It's easier to re-weight things when you know that your new item or whatever is going to pop up 3/100 rather than 2/66, even though it's the same rate 14:56:30 But you're right, it's not really a big deal if things don't sum up to a round number 14:58:42 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1471-g981f6e296f (34) 14:58:42 <12ebering> yeah I had forgotten about the species specific ones 14:58:42 <12ebering> sorry, you won't be able to escape spreadsheeting so easily if you want to do a biger set of changes 😉 15:00:31 that's where the real crawl is 15:00:32 I enjoy it anyway, so no big deal. What does everyone thing about removing stat change muts right out? They are by far the most boring and least impactful 15:00:44 I still want to un-dilute the good mut list 15:02:16 If anyone still needs it, this is the current weight list and percentages of muts : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_e2a1rrm6cYwzzMjQpFlLhha5MGGP0SeATRht29zYjM/edit?usp=sharing 15:02:31 first column 15:05:07 <10PleasingFungus> iirc elliptic had some things to say in favor of stat change muts last time this came up 15:05:09 <10PleasingFungus> and someone (possibly also elliptic?) wanted to make em +4X -1Y -1Z or something 15:05:12 <12ebering> here's a summary I sent 12/15 at the tail end of the convo: The discussion was more about what to do with stat mutations, and came to the conclusion that something like +4 but -1 to your other 2 stats per level (and make them mutually exclusive) is better for a "positive" stat-up mutation 15:05:25 <10PleasingFungus> hi 5 ebering 15:05:52 <12ebering> dang pf with the memory while I'm way back in discord search 15:06:11 <10PleasingFungus> my memory's gotta work once in a while 15:08:32 <06advil> possibly should have worded that "a crash during..." 😄 15:08:48 <10PleasingFungus> not sure why we’d have to make em mutually exclusive tbh 15:10:07 <10PleasingFungus> ebering: we have a style handbook? 15:10:18 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1472-g442d625: fix: don't send crash milestones over webtiles sockets 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/442d62588604 15:10:18 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1473-g62e843a: fix: crash during settings_db initial generation 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/62e843ad7824 15:11:04 03apranvoku02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2301 * 0.28-a0-1148-gd29171c: Add weights as comment 10(66 seconds ago, 1 file, 105+ 104-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d29171cce11f 15:11:36 There are already muts like that 15:11:36 { MUT_STRONG_STIFF, 0, 3, mutflag::good, false, "stiff muscles", {"Your muscles are strong, but stiff. (Str +1, Dex -1)", "Your muscles are very strong, but stiff. (Str +2, Dex -2)", "Your muscles are extremely strong, but stiff. (Str +3, Dex -3)"}, 15:11:36 The actual values could be nudged 15:11:41 <12ebering> note weight 0, they're inside save compat removal blocks for the moment 15:11:56 <12ebering> I have a physical grammar book on my mom's law desk 15:12:14 Also, Ebering, if you have time I just pushed the changes you asked for. 15:12:49 <10PleasingFungus> ebering: nice 15:14:26 <10PleasingFungus> sauken: aside from those muts having been removed years ago, note that they’re both tiny and not net positive 15:14:56 also advil not sure if the highlight-by-default on certain menus but not others is intentional? (e.g.,https://i.imghurr.com/e/GUljLa8CKm.png versus https://i.imghurr.com/e/VoHNgx0LpQ.png) 15:15:29 yes, that is intentional 15:16:09 Cool. And did you happen to catch my message re: ?acq dialog? It was noisy at the time. 15:18:03 Though, honestly, it seems like kind of a weird to have them be "good" mutations, cause even if it is +4 str, -1 int, -1 dex, if you're playing a caster that's neutral to bad, you'd just be hoping that you'd get the "caster" version of that stat mut 15:18:03 yes, I did 15:18:03 <12ebering> well "good" is mostly "not actively harmful to all characters" 15:18:03 <10PleasingFungus> casters can use em to wear heavier armour :p but yes, they’re good in the same way horns muts are good 15:18:03 <10PleasingFungus> which is to say, sometimes 15:18:03 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1473-g62e843ad78 (34) 15:18:21 Do you think multi-rank or just single-rank would be best for that 15:20:05 Also yeah mutual exclusiveness makes sense, because if you have the big brain mutation (Your brain is extra big but makes dextrous movement more difficult and makes your neck stiff) +4 int, -1 dex, -1 str. It would be weird to have the big muscle mut (Your extra strong muscles pull blood away from your brain) +4 str, -1 int, -1 dex 15:20:43 Plus it would just even out to 3 int, 3 str, -2 dex anyway which is pretty close to what we have now 15:21:49 04Build failed for 08master @ 62e843ad 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1679715568 15:21:51 <10PleasingFungus> i guess it's not obvious to me that 'pretty close to what we have now' is bad 😛 15:22:15 Not that it's bad, but at that point why go through the work of changing it 15:22:28 <10PleasingFungus> and i think that'd result in the case that, if the game rolled the +str one and you had the +dex one already, you'd lose +dex instead of gaining anything 15:22:30 <10PleasingFungus> which is a little silly 15:24:29 I guess it's just hard to justify from a flavor standpoint 15:24:29 <10PleasingFungus> i don't care about flavour at all 15:24:29 <10PleasingFungus> it just seems wrong from gameplay 15:24:29 <10PleasingFungus> harder to reason about what "giving a goodmut" does if there's a higher chance of it removing another goodmut 15:24:29 <10PleasingFungus> right now i don't think there's anything that does that 15:25:45 <05kate> there's various conflicting body slot muts, i think they use one of the other conflict modes rather than just "remove 1 level of the old mut" though 15:25:47 <10PleasingFungus> i guess maybe you could set it up like the aux muts 15:25:48 <10PleasingFungus> yeah 15:26:31 <10PleasingFungus> uses the badly named -1 mode 15:26:36 <10PleasingFungus> which, btw: add an enum 15:27:03 It's kinda like if you could get fire vuln as a mut, it would be mut ex with fire resist right. The stat stuff is like that, but just to lesser extent 15:27:41 i don't think being strong conflicts with being smart 15:28:35 What would the description be for a mutation that gave you str but took away dex and int, for example? 15:29:23 I guess you could just leave the int and dex malus unexplained, or make the player come up with some internal reasoning 15:29:40 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1474-g56126da: fix: properly sync non-templated mores to webtiles 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/56126dae6c93 15:30:56 Do you mean something like "This mutation strengthens you, at the cost of your agility and intelligence"? 15:30:56 (Not verbatim) 15:31:14 Well, that would work. My reasoning with that was the old explanation was : "Your muscles are strong, but stiff. (Str +1, Dex -1)", 15:31:36 Which sounds weird if you also have this: {"Your muscles are flexible, but weak (Str -1, Dex +1).", 15:31:46 <03wheals> You work out at the gym/You work out at the track/You work out at the library 15:32:05 https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/where-do-you-work-out 15:32:24 I work out at the !xp 15:32:39 <03wheals> or more seriously, You are brutish/You are waifish/You are bookish 15:32:45 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1474-g56126dae6c (34) 15:33:02 <03wheals> with the stats in parentheses right next to it of course 15:33:11 Right, but would it makes sense to be both brutish and bookish? Or brutiosh and waifish? Bookish and waifish could work but 15:33:41 <12ebering> You are very brutish (Str+8, Int-2, Dex-2) 15:33:55 Ahh honestly this discussion is kinda moot anyway, becuase I still think pure stat muts aren't really interesting or fun 15:33:57 <03wheals> I think just making them all exclusive is best, yeah 15:34:00 (for me) 15:34:37 I mean, +x -y can be interesting, especially if it buffs your combat stat and threatens stat zero 15:35:30 practicepractice (L20 MiFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 679: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 15:36:08 03Perry Fraser02 {ebering} 07* 0.28-a0-1475-g6dc9c6b: fix: properly describe moving staircases 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6dc9c6bb351f 15:36:08 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1476-g7cf701f: fix: don't crash when cycling hover on an empty menu 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7cf701f5d5c4 15:36:08 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1477-g273aa18: fix: don't check gold for MSG_NOTHING_CARRIED 10(51 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/273aa187102a 15:37:22 It would be strong, but muts should be something that fundamentally change the player imo. Like giver telekinesis or ability to control storms (ahem, x-men) 15:37:34 <12ebering> !crashlog practicepractice 15:37:36 <04Cerebot> 1. practicepractice, XL20 MiFi, T:45456 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/practicepractice/crash-practicepractice-20220110-223518.txt 15:38:04 practicepractice (L20 MiFi) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 679: Portal enter_pandemonium[57] didn't get generated. (Depths:2) 15:38:42 Jewellry and gear already kinda take care of the whole stats thing. Design space, and all that 15:38:46 <06advil> fyi, in case the commit got lost in the flurry, crash milestones were broken for about the last 2 months 15:38:51 <06advil> so uh we may have missed stuff 15:39:00 <12ebering> ty advil 15:39:02 <12ebering> big save 15:39:09 literally 15:39:42 <06advil> really not sure how this got missed, except that it might have been sort of working on some servers depending on the timing of when the process shut down 15:40:02 <06advil> crashlogs were still generated so I guess we were all checking them manually 15:40:21 <06advil> well in fairness I was the one who break it 🙃 15:41:04 <12ebering> I was checking them manually when a player complained 15:41:15 <12ebering> and going "huh sequell doesn't have it yet odd" then fixing the bug 15:41:20 <06advil> heh 15:42:04 <06advil> I suppose they might have worked on console if there were not spectators 15:42:09 <06advil> not sure 15:43:50 <12ebering> the seed for that one repros on 1474 so I will now try to bisect it 15:45:38 <06advil> something similar just showed up in a random seed test apparently, Testing seed 1018857542. . ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 679: Portal enter_abyss[54] didn't get generated. 15:46:25 <12ebering> hm 15:47:06 <06advil> that one also replicates on cur trunk 15:47:47 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1477-g273aa18710 (34) 15:48:09 <12ebering> ok 1447 does not repro for the seed in the crash 15:48:10 <12ebering> I 15:48:16 <12ebering> I'll try the random test one 15:50:17 <12ebering> 1447 also good for the random test 15:50:17 <12ebering> (in case someone else is bisecting too) 15:50:18 <03wheals> tbh on some level i assumed no crashes were appearing since chei was down, though now i remember chei doesn't actually report them 15:51:09 <06advil> we probably should someday tweak Sequell to report them, since that would get servers that don't run bots too 15:52:41 <10PleasingFungus> i was basically where ebering was 15:52:46 <10PleasingFungus> except that i didn't check them manually 15:52:55 <10PleasingFungus> re mysterious broken crash milestones 15:53:04 <10PleasingFungus> just going "huh, that's odd" 15:55:07 <06advil> well, it was odd, you're not wrong! 15:56:41 <06advil> it might have been more spottable if there was a way of logging recursive crashes better, but the crash code does an freopen to stderr for some reason and it seems very hard to undo 15:56:41 <06advil> til that recursive crash errors do show up at the end of the non-recursive crashlog for this reason 15:59:44 perryprog: I can't replicate the acquirement screenshot you posted, can you say more about your build? 15:59:59 advil, actually, the last ?acq I got (I recompiled since that screenshot) it was fine... 16:00:08 very spooky 16:03:26 <06advil> hm, I guess it's possible that one of the commits since then had a side effect that fixed it 16:21:03 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1478-g486f26d: fix: an intermittent levelgen crash 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/486f26dfa3b0 16:22:30 perryprog: re your earlier question, the generalization is supposed to be that hover is initially shown for everything except the regular inventory 16:22:52 Ahh, so that's the only exception 16:23:21 I have to admit it feels weird because it's change and change is bad, but I'm sure I'll get used to it (I only use letters and rarely mouse) 16:23:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.28-a0-1477-g273aa18710 (34) 16:23:48 this change is not really about the mouse 16:23:51 right 16:23:57 I personally don't think it matters enough for it, but could be worth having an option that does not highlight that first entry 16:25:12 (Oh, to be clear I'm referring to the new behavior of the first item in a list menu being highlighted) 16:27:33 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1479-g74d9c6d: fix: show hover by default for shop menu 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/74d9c6da68a6 16:27:33 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1480-g744777c: feat: enable arrow keys for shopping list menu 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/744777c2d9c5 16:27:33 03Perry Fraser02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-1481-g7509e2a: fix: phial should always engulf the center target 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7509e2a2af74 16:29:44 I would prefer not to add an option for that 16:30:19 if there's a case for not showing the hover other than change bad I would consider changing the behavior, it's a flag so it's very easy to do 16:30:59 I'm fairly certain there's no argument besides change bad 16:32:01 <12ebering> advil: while you're messing with inventory help keys and menus, pressing ? on the read screen reads the first scroll alphabetically 16:32:06 <12ebering> instead of opening help 16:32:14 lol 16:32:21 I think that's "intended" 16:32:31 but it is funny that it happens on the read menu too 16:32:41 <12ebering> I both know that fact and did it anyway 16:32:59 <12ebering> (I was confused by the hover and wondered what else new was available because I didn't read your commits and just wasted a scroll) 16:33:28 for most of those menus if there is a help it's on `_` 16:33:34 but several of them don't have a help iirc 16:33:42 a better behavior would be to just scroll to the category, probably 16:35:18 but that's weirdly hard to implement 16:35:18 <12ebering> ya, r has no help at all 16:35:18 <10PleasingFungus> wait 16:35:18 <10PleasingFungus> why on earth would that be intended 16:35:18 possibly only `d` and `\` *do* have a help 16:35:18 I mean if you don't know how to read in the first place, I don't think reading a manual on how to read would be much help 16:35:37 something something sand from a shoe something instructions on the heel 16:36:01 on all the inv menus the category key triggers whatever happens when you select the first item in the category, or if it's a multiselect menu, it selects the whole category 16:36:29 the latter is sane, the former is extremely janky but has been around forever 16:37:12 I do want to change the former, but I tried as part of the patch I merged today and temporarily abandoned it because of the weird way category keys are implemented 16:38:27 for using items, I doubt it's really intended per se but it's probably something that snuck in whenever UseItemMenu was implemented 16:38:39 inheriting the behavior from InvMenu 16:43:23 <10PleasingFungus> i'm imagining just hitting r? and hoping for the best 16:43:44 <10PleasingFungus> gimme a scroll, any scroll. fog? teleport? torment? don't care, just give it now! 16:45:04 Xom's approved scroll-reading technique 16:48:20 <10PleasingFungus> btw, @ebering , wdyt about reverting the various revert-mes? spider, orbs, infusion ego 16:48:20 <10PleasingFungus> it feels like we got some good testing in 16:50:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1481-g7509e2a2af (34) 16:50:38 Oh, should I split the commit in this into a refactoring commit and a bugfix commit? I'm unsure what the best etiquette is for ensuring the PR is sanely backportable 16:50:40 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2314/files 16:53:31 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1482-gfc45454: fix: disable item class hotkeys in UseItemMenu 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fc4545441119 17:03:26 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1482-gfc45454411 (34) 17:40:28 narz (L15 VpWn) ASSERT(attack) in 'fineff.cc' at line 242 failed. (D:15) 17:40:45 <12ebering> !crashlog narz 17:40:46 <04Cerebot> No milestones for narz (crash). 17:51:28 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1483-gda10c1d: tiles: throatcutter and maulers (Sastreii) 10(7 minutes ago, 5 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da10c1d9672f 18:02:42 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1483-gda10c1d967 (34) 18:27:29 !crashlog 18:27:30 24167. narz, XL15 VpWn, T:20033 (milestone): https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/narz/crash-narz-20220111-004016.txt 18:29:52 wizard suicide by fireball + anguish retaliate looks like 18:29:59 <12ebering> yep 18:31:23 where the fireball hit the player too 18:32:19 how do people feel about `easy_floor_use` being true by default? (which it has been since 2016) 18:32:38 I ask because I find it a really non-intuitive option, especially after adding hover to those menus 18:36:35 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1484-ga4b2446: fix: an anguishing crash 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a4b24466b45c 18:44:20 I've never found it unintuitive and I've used it on several occasions 18:47:40 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1484-ga4b24466b4 (34) 18:51:13 <10PleasingFungus> oops, bad assert 18:51:16 <10PleasingFungus> ty! 19:33:10 easy floor use is where you're not forced to pick up noncombat scrolls, you can just squat over them? 19:33:14 i love it! 19:47:07 03Perry Fraser02 {GitHub} 07* 0.28-a0-1485-g077359a: fix: display_bar should clamp negative values 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 16+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/077359a4bfe6 19:48:23 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1485-g077359a4bf (34) 20:17:24 spicyCebola: no, easy_floor_use is that if there is exactly one item on the floor of the right type and you hit `,`, instead of toggling the menu state it immediately uses the item 20:18:41 er, spicyCebolla, but I guess they aren't here 22:20:36 <10PleasingFungus> i guess i use that but i’m not very excited by it 22:22:13 <10PleasingFungus> seems like the sort of thing that kate would enjoy cutting, since it’s a surprising change in the # of keypresses