00:54:03 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1395-g4f6bc678fa (34) 01:41:09 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4 02:17:55 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 04:23:02 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4 08:58:14 <06advil> in the drop menu, if you hit enter with nothing selected, it brings you out of the menu to a msgwin drop prompt; does anyone know why this would be useful? 08:58:14 sounds like a holdover from old console days 09:15:55 <03wheals> isn't that the case with most use item menus? 09:18:31 <06advil> I didn't check widely but it didn't happen on the other item menus I checked 09:18:41 <06advil> it's definitely happening in drop-specific code 09:19:39 <06advil> (which has been refactored in the last 5 years but still has a lot of blame lines with "integrated travel patch" commits as well as some dead code, so it's a bit hard to figure out the history) 09:25:33 <06advil> yeah, everything these days just seems to get "Okay, then." I can definitely believe this used to happen 09:26:02 <06advil> %git 717130ad10241e420 09:26:03 <04Cerebot> PleasingFungus * 0.20-a0-338-g717130a: Simplify prompt_invent_items() (5 years ago, 3 files, 54+ 89-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/717130ad1024 09:26:16 <06advil> it seems like that commit left this behavior only for drop? 09:44:02 <06advil> oh, no the code for doing these prompts is still there in prompt_invent_item it just seems to be entirely unused except for in the Adjust to which letter? prompt 09:47:19 <06advil> // TODO: some versions of _invent_select, such as wield, never // return '?'. Is this a problem? 09:47:26 <06advil> 🤔 09:48:58 <06advil> I wonder if this is one of those things that vanished in the big ui refactor and noone noticed 09:49:01 <06advil> it looks like at some point in the past, ? was intended to toggle to the prompt for at least some cases 09:50:00 wasn't it the reverse? iirc very early versions took you to the msgwin prompt and you had to hit ? to get the menu 09:50:25 <06advil> I think that was *, but yes, it could definitely have started the other way 09:51:08 <06advil> right now the code is supposed to toggle to the prompt if the menu returns ? as the key in, but possibly 0 inventory menus ever do that 09:51:21 <10PleasingFungus> look at those old params 09:51:25 <10PleasingFungus> beautiful 09:51:31 <06advil> lol 09:55:18 * geekosaur wonders if he could check this 09:55:18 just got access to all my old backups, at least some of which have some chance of having pre-dcss crawl source in them :) 09:55:18 <06advil> aha I found a menu where ? does work, by backtracking my own commits 09:56:24 <10PleasingFungus> geekosaur: if you can add anything to https://github.com/crawl/crawl-ancient/ , that'd be sweet 🙂 09:58:53 if I can find it, there should be at least one peterb/nlanza version in there from before they merged codebases with *snark 09:59:08 <10PleasingFungus> ooh 10:02:01 <03wheals> starting in msgwin was turned off by auto_list, which was made default true long ago (and only slightly less long ago removed entirely) 10:03:44 that sounds familiar, yes 10:04:47 <03wheals> speaking of removing options, hopefully easy_quit_item_prompts can go one way or another 10:06:29 <06advil> huh does easy_quit_item_prompts work? 10:07:49 <06advil> oh this is not about the menus 10:07:49 <06advil> just the prompts 10:29:47 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1395-g4f6bc67 (34) 10:42:50 hm, doesn't look like any of my backups are old enough. I do have an 0.7.0 though :) 10:46:02 <05kate> i love that the readme on crawl-ancient basically still exists unchanged in modern crawl's docs 10:46:41 I've got a 1999 source tree if you want it 10:46:50 <05kate> including the suggestion to print it out so you can follow it while playing 10:47:09 3.30 26/3/99 10:50:01 <10PleasingFungus> pinkbeast: looks like that's already in https://github.com/crawl/crawl-ancient/commits/ancient?after=a3e1b574e98a1273dd7aec97da4ce65b18803f6e+34&branch=ancient 10:50:05 <10PleasingFungus> but thanks! 10:51:39 I'm slightly now wondering if I've had it _since_ 1999 10:51:47 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 11:04:24 poking at the oldest backup. sadly I now suspect the backup I want was on a T60 and would be unreadable even if I had the tapes… 11:09:38 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1396-gdcb3f36: Update the quickstart guide 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dcb3f3653b05 11:13:35 0.3.4. bleh 11:15:03 oh well 11:17:38 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1396-gdcb3f3653b (34) 11:18:20 * geekosaur is sad 11:43:51 <10PleasingFungus> @kate wow, i definitely did not remember that existed 11:44:29 <10PleasingFungus> vaguely amused that you left in the advice to pillar-dance 11:45:01 <05kate> hah, i did notice that, can't remove it until we merge fast monsters though! 11:45:16 <08nicolae> q: flavorwise, should jorogumos be undead or not 11:45:17 <05kate> or slow players 11:56:05 <08nicolae> aw, pharaoh ants can't soulbind other pharaoh ants 12:10:00 <10PleasingFungus> re undead: don't think jorogumo fit crawl undead very well, since they're a lil shapeshifty. they're more like demons 12:10:13 <08nicolae> they don't count as those either, though 12:10:20 <10PleasingFungus> sure, but they could 12:10:34 <08nicolae> they got a ghost stickin out the back, i feel like they probably gotta at least be mildly allergic to a scroll of holy word 12:10:51 <08nicolae> fr descriptions have an explicit thing saying if a monster is undead, demonic, etc 12:11:56 <10PleasingFungus> i want to redesign monster descriptions 12:11:56 <10PleasingFungus> hm 12:12:19 <08nicolae> i've mentioned this before but how hard would it be to move the quotes for items/spells/whatnot to another screen, like they currently are for monsters 12:12:36 <08nicolae> on the topic of descriptions 12:13:21 <10PleasingFungus> medium-small. not super hard, not quite trivial 12:13:26 <10PleasingFungus> involves poking at menu code 12:21:35 menu code is the scariest 12:21:42 except maybe graphics code 12:22:21 you haven't touched beam code yet? 12:27:51 actually I have, barely 12:27:51 but that was deleting beam code 12:34:31 Huh, I was thinking about moving the monster quotes to the same screen since you baiscally never see them now 13:04:27 <08nicolae> they make the box huge, though 14:02:32 <10PleasingFungus> i did some concepts 14:03:56 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928030663607738518/Yak.png 14:03:56 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928030663838421012/lomnolegerebovich.png 14:03:56 <10PleasingFungus> current mnoleg, for reference 14:03:56 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928030838862512158/unknown.png 14:03:56 <10PleasingFungus> probably speed should be a first-class item, maybe stuck up on the stat row 14:04:56 <10PleasingFungus> goal would be to have many tooltips, e.g. for melee effects, EV (showing your % to-hit) 14:17:42 <10PleasingFungus> also i have no idea how i'd implement any of this 14:18:18 <10PleasingFungus> would probably be easier without the cool bars and maybe with a bunch of ------ and | instead 14:23:35 <05kate> i feel like splitting it into multiple columns doesn't especially help for spells|misc, it feels a bit cramped compared to just having them in new rows? but that's probably a better way to display attacks and resists and stuff compared to the current long sentences, yeah 14:25:27 <10PleasingFungus> fair 14:25:36 <10PleasingFungus> i wanted to put misc in the corner as a sign of my contempt for those things 14:25:38 <10PleasingFungus> they're so trivial 14:25:42 <10PleasingFungus> well 14:25:44 <10PleasingFungus> flying and sinv are important 14:25:49 <10PleasingFungus> and size sometimes is, but players won't know when 14:25:52 <10PleasingFungus> and intelligence sort of isn't 14:26:02 <10PleasingFungus> idk. could prob move em out somewhere 14:27:39 <10PleasingFungus> i had a goal of keeping the current longest descriptions from expanding even farther 14:27:57 <10PleasingFungus> but that’s not critical 15:01:41 <09hellmonk> Put the drescription in another tab or sth 15:01:41 <09hellmonk> Don't need to read 200 pages of mnoleg lore 15:02:42 I dunno, getting descriptions of the things I'm clicking on is pretty dope 15:03:13 especially when the things I'm clicking on are creatures called "pandemonium lords" or something crazy like that 15:04:47 though the nethack-esque quotes from stuff that aren't really about the creature might be a bit less important in that sense, I guess 15:05:43 <10PleasingFungus> no. it rules 15:05:52 ur opinion is wrong >:((( 15:05:53 <10PleasingFungus> you'll read the lore and like it 15:06:00 <10PleasingFungus> sorry 'no' was @ hellmo 15:06:02 <10PleasingFungus> not @ u 15:06:04 oh phew 15:06:29 <10PleasingFungus> also i do think it's important to contextualize things 15:06:36 <10PleasingFungus> like before you get down to the mean business of stats 15:08:09 <10PleasingFungus> you need to go, you know. what is this? 15:33:52 <03wheals> plus it's important for us console players to know what it looks like before bashing it to death 15:37:45 there are console players? huh 15:38:12 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish / !tile 15:38:13 <04Cerebot> No keyword 'tile' 15:38:18 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish / !tiles 15:38:23 <04Cerebot> 94987/2175751 games for * (recentish): N=94987/2175751 (4.37%) 15:38:27 wow that's low 15:38:35 <10PleasingFungus> !lg * recentish x=cdist(name) / !tiles 15:38:39 thought it'd be higher to be honest 15:38:54 <04Cerebot> 94987/2175751 games for * (recentish): cdist(name)=999/29939 (3.34%) 15:40:16 <10PleasingFungus> you can do graphs; it's been at more or less this level since 0.12 or something 15:43:26 <12ebering> still preferential to buckler fighters for the "don't give out lasting gear" reason 15:44:07 <10PleasingFungus> reasonable 15:44:13 <10PleasingFungus> i was just curious 15:44:18 <10PleasingFungus> what do you think of my beautiful concept art? 15:46:36 <12ebering> workin my way down scrollback 15:46:47 <12ebering> I think that you have no console mock-ups :< 15:47:00 there are console pla—wait I already made that joke 15:47:06 <12ebering> also the multi-colums are hell for screen readers so the console version should be panes like the religion screen 15:47:20 <12ebering> yes there are console players and some of them use console+screen reader and play without sight 15:48:25 I was surprised to find out that crawl had a visually impaired community—a friend of mine who's blind says playing rougelikes was a pain in the butt due to having to basically move your cursor around tile by tile to figure out what's around 15:49:35 <12ebering> I implemented a bunch of improvements to ^x to make that easier 15:49:42 <3 15:49:45 <10PleasingFungus> ebering: makes sense 15:51:00 <10PleasingFungus> still don't really know how i'd implement this for anything (tiles, webtiles, or console) 15:51:01 one of the previous internet places™ I worked in was actually to do with a project that transcribed images (e.g., memes, twitter screenshots, etc.) into a standardized textual format, so I do have a bit of background with working in web accessibility. 15:51:06 <10PleasingFungus> so separate mockups weren't on the top of my mind 15:51:08 But that's another story :) 15:51:18 <10PleasingFungus> was just thinking about organization and prioritization 16:05:46 <12ebering> ya 16:05:46 <12ebering> do like the bins 16:05:48 <12ebering> the hp/ac/ev line 16:06:01 <12ebering> might free your thinking a bit to have the spells on a separate page? 16:06:07 <12ebering> since that's often the most complicated 16:12:10 <10PleasingFungus> they are very important, though 16:12:10 <08nicolae> eh 16:12:10 <08nicolae> players don't need anything but the name of the monster and the quote 16:12:10 <10PleasingFungus> gotta hit ! 16:13:58 <09hellmonk> do think that spell info needs to be on the first page, or else you need a big flashing button and siren signaling that the monster has spells 16:14:40 <10PleasingFungus> agree 16:15:08 <10PleasingFungus> not sure what we get from moving them to a separate page 16:15:45 more space for big quote! 16:16:04 <08nicolae> i wonder if it would help to have, like, They can see invisible, are intelligent, fast, and large. and then have the damage thinger be its own paragraph 16:16:22 I do admittedly like how that is now, as in in prose 16:16:40 Symbols can be harder to grok 16:16:46 <10PleasingFungus> symbols? 16:17:07 <10PleasingFungus> nicolae: i don't understand, sorry 16:17:08 oh I guess that doesn't apply for the "misc." section 16:17:09 <10PleasingFungus> could you explain 16:18:35 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: did you mean for resists? 16:18:35 No, for the see invis/speed/size stuff 16:18:35 <08nicolae> currently the "They can/They are" are all on their own lines, but they can be condensed into one, like how the resists are their own single line with a ; 16:18:35 agreed 16:18:35 <10PleasingFungus> no, i understand that. i'm trying out what that would help 16:18:35 <10PleasingFungus> it seems like it just makes it harder to spot pertinent information 16:18:35 <10PleasingFungus> if you have one column, you can scan down it for "sees invisible" or "flies" or w/e 16:18:42 <10PleasingFungus> if you have sentence, you have to wander along it and dodge all the punctuation, "ands", etc 16:18:43 <10PleasingFungus> it's messier 16:18:49 eh, maybe 16:19:12 <10PleasingFungus> i am very much trying to move away from the prose style, because i think it's much harder to parse 16:19:43 I've just never found myself having an issue with it, but I suppose you're right in that scanning a list would be more efficient 16:23:07 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.28-a0-1396-gdcb3f3653b (34) 17:48:29 Orb of chaos: has a chance to empower your spells or to unimpower them, starting at a flat 50/50 rate (or maybe 25% per spell to active, only then getting the 50/50 rate), and improving with skill in evo 17:55:22 <05kate> a good squarelos bug there 17:59:47 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1397-g2cf8304: Fix halo descriptions on '@' 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2cf8304be81a 18:02:59 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1397-g2cf8304be8 (34) 18:06:12 03kate-02 07[offhand] * 0.28-a0-1400-g798f012: Update shield descriptions 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/798f012c12d7 18:31:51 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-1398-gd379f8d: Remove an unused attack field 10(6 minutes ago, 2 files, 1+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d379f8d934b4 18:35:00 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1398-gd379f8d934 (34) 18:37:26 <10PleasingFungus> makin progress 18:37:27 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928099844646662204/unknown.png 18:37:54 <10PleasingFungus> vaguely wonder if 'speed' would read better as '1.4x' 18:39:33 <12ebering> I think so 18:39:33 btw why's Ereshkigal get the coolest demon lord sprite of anyone 18:39:42 could also try 1.4�, PF 18:39:44 <10PleasingFungus> compensation for her old bad one 18:39:45 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928100425155096646/unknown.png 18:39:50 <10PleasingFungus> wow, imagine getting unicode 18:39:53 <10PleasingFungus> couldn't be me 18:40:08 ikr I'm so cool 18:40:37 <10PleasingFungus> tooltip will go here 18:40:37 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928100642432647228/unknown.png 18:44:45 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1399-g7b68f1b: Rework shield penalties 10(3 days ago, 9 files, 41+ 73-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7b68f1b707db 18:44:45 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1400-g3a1cdb9: Base aux attack chance on XL instead of str+dex 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a1cdb9d3126 18:44:45 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1401-g4b82a7e: Rework offhand punch checks 10(2 days ago, 2 files, 2+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4b82a7ed237a 18:44:45 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1402-gee27558: Refactor aux attack accuracy 10(2 days ago, 6 files, 22+ 21-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ee2755802b3d 18:45:58 <12ebering> Need a console variant for tool tips that screen reads well 18:45:58 <12ebering> (I can try to come up with one and happy to help consult/tweak on this issue) 18:47:11 <10PleasingFungus> yes, i was just thinking about that 18:47:22 <10PleasingFungus> i think what you'd want is some button you press that lets you cursor around between 'regions' 18:47:28 <10PleasingFungus> and prints out info about them in some way 18:48:26 <12ebering> That is definitely not what screenreader users want. Console cursors and screen reader cursors don’t play nice (and this is a curses/reader issue that we can’t do much about) 18:48:52 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 18:48:53 <10PleasingFungus> fair 18:49:12 <10PleasingFungus> could... have a button you could press that would let you type the name of a section... to print more info about it? 18:49:23 <10PleasingFungus> maybe it'd have a lettered list 18:49:27 <10PleasingFungus> a b c d etc 18:49:39 <10PleasingFungus> where a is the tooltip for max HP, b is for AC, etc 18:50:13 <12ebering> I’ll bump the audio games forum thread w/some qs since I don’t actually know what’s best 18:50:18 <10PleasingFungus> could actually just have that always active, and maybe do things by section if appropriate 18:52:22 <10PleasingFungus> looking at my mockup, you'd want tooltips for... 5 top bar things (HP etc), up to 12 attacks, maybe 8 resistances (i forget if we have more), 6 spells, maybe 6ish misc things 18:52:22 <10PleasingFungus> that could fit in a-zA-Z 18:52:22 <10PleasingFungus> but we'd have to show the letters somewhere 😦 18:52:22 <10PleasingFungus> a tooltip would be a great place to list these sorts of hotkey, 18:53:07 Maybe a keybind prefix followed by a section letter that would give the relevant section in the message buffer? 18:53:55 Something like ^E while highlighting the monster followed by "R" and you get "Orb of fire is immune to fire and resistant to electricity" or something, without a full modal 18:54:11 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 18:54:21 <10PleasingFungus> i wonder about putting "Press ? for help" in the top right, as a starter 18:54:22 that's totally not the emacs user in me speaking though 18:54:38 <10PleasingFungus> i don't know what i'd put in the help section, though 18:54:53 <10PleasingFungus> also, perry, i think you're talking about something quite different 18:55:05 could be, it's that time of day for me 18:55:40 but this is fixing the problem of "inaccessible message box" by giving an option of getting that information without that modal/box 19:00:29 <10PleasingFungus> to try to clarify, the question is this 19:00:35 <10PleasingFungus> you're looking at this page 19:00:35 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928105666575499294/unknown.png 19:00:58 <10PleasingFungus> you see a mysterious * next to "speed". you want to ask, 'what's with that? and what is 'speed', anyway?" 19:02:02 <10PleasingFungus> in a mouse-based paradigm, you'd mouse over that and get a tooltip explaining This monster performs most actions at 1.5x normal speed. It attacks very slowly. 19:02:05 <10PleasingFungus> Or something like that. 19:02:22 <10PleasingFungus> If you don't have a mouse, though...? 19:03:09 <06advil> imo for something like a juggernaut the special info should not be hidden in a tooltip 19:03:27 <10PleasingFungus> yes, i also want to put 'slow attacks' in the 'misc' section 19:03:28 <06advil> I'm afraid I find that way worse than just putting "It is fast, but attacks extremely slowly" in the description as it isnow 19:03:37 <10PleasingFungus> or possibly somewhere else, maybe near 'attacks' 19:05:13 <10PleasingFungus> that's a perfectly reasonable opinion! i'm very open to changing that kind of thing 19:05:13 <10PleasingFungus> also, advil, if you have any thoughts on how to implement tooltips in local or web tiles, i'd welcome them. i'm looking at the existing tiles tooltip code plus wheals' status light web tooltip commit (03ef8e7d8535f0c92b21e8645ae61eee975a8931), and both leave me frightened and intimidated 19:05:41 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1402-gee2755802b (34) 19:05:42 <06advil> the current desc does not necessarily seem like a problem that needs solving to me? 19:05:43 <06advil> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928106956915351552/Screen_Shot_2022-01-04_at_9.04.57_PM.png 19:05:57 <10PleasingFungus> really? it looks like a massive mess to me 19:06:00 <10PleasingFungus> no organization 19:06:12 PF, I was more talking about making the entire monster info information accessible in a way that doesn't require tedious table-like navigational controls 19:06:18 <10PleasingFungus> critical information like speed is mixed in with almost irrelevant stuff like intelligence 19:06:32 <06advil> you could like put speed first 19:06:36 yeah, at the "it is intelligent" part i start to thiiiink the important info mmmmmust be over 19:06:48 <10PleasingFungus> attacks are borderline unreadable , especially for anything with effects 19:07:06 the attack description definitely needs some work 19:07:15 because honestly I don't even know what that means in that screenshot 19:07:29 also no real reason to use a semicolon there either 19:07:29 <10PleasingFungus> (i can say this because i wrote the current attack description :p) 19:08:05 like... an attack is 40? But also 80?? 19:08:10 <06advil> so this are problems but not problems that lead to an ultra-shortened thing with crucial info in tooltips 19:08:19 <06advil> fwiw it attacks twice I believe 19:08:25 (I figured, but that isn't said) 19:08:25 <10PleasingFungus> yep 19:08:29 <10PleasingFungus> i agree with you! 19:08:40 <10PleasingFungus> i think no crucial info should be tooltip only 19:08:49 <10PleasingFungus> only helpful clarifications 19:09:12 * Pinkbeast says "Crawl has tooltips" and runs away 19:11:37 <10PleasingFungus> but i don’t think there’s anything sacred about the current layout 19:11:37 <10PleasingFungus> it’s something that’s grown steadily and organically over time 19:11:46 <10PleasingFungus> and has much much more info than when it was first designed 19:11:54 Just like atTentacled starspawn 19:11:59 a tentacled starspawn* 19:14:30 <10PleasingFungus> @advil did you see the mock-ups i posted earlier? 19:18:05 <06advil> ah, no 19:18:05 <10PleasingFungus> hold on 19:18:05 <10PleasingFungus> i’ll make a new one 19:19:32 <09gammafunk> top 20 beam.cc messer withers 19:19:32 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928110435767566436/unknown.png 19:19:56 <06advil> huh, I'd have thought I'd be higher up 19:20:06 top three get the bonus of having lost their soul 19:20:10 <06advil> I guess time in beam.cc does not correspond to lines very well 19:20:13 <09gammafunk> if it's any consolation, should be easy to pass me up 19:20:24 <09gammafunk> yeah it's just a commit count, not a line count, true 19:26:09 <10PleasingFungus> ok, here's some mockups 19:26:10 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928112104706281482/spellom.png 19:26:10 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928112104962146394/Yak_-_spells_first.png 19:26:42 <10PleasingFungus> i moved spells before attacks and resists since, for monsters with spells, the spells are often the most important thing about them (usually as important as their attacks, if not moreso) 19:27:04 <10PleasingFungus> the 'misc' section is a bit of a mess right now - i originally had it squashed in next to spells 19:27:08 <10PleasingFungus> not sure how it should look 19:27:35 <10PleasingFungus> also undecided about a few other things 19:29:17 <10PleasingFungus> and here's current-day mnoleg again, if you want to admire that attack block 19:29:17 I like "magic ignores silence", I feel like the attack table is a bit heavy on the spaciousness 19:29:17 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928112890777600030/unknown.png 19:30:54 oh huh someone put Mnoleg's tile in upside down 19:30:54 <10PleasingFungus> it's tricky because there are a few wide things ("+ weapon", "tentacle-slap"), but most things are narrow 19:30:54 can't believe no-one noticed 19:30:54 ya 19:30:54 <10PleasingFungus> clearly replace "+ weapon" with "+ 🗡" 19:30:54 <09hellmonk> just do the entire display in emoji 19:30:54 <10PleasingFungus> or † 19:30:54 <10PleasingFungus> don't tempt me! 19:30:54 if we rewrite in Swift we can have the variable names be in Emoji too 19:31:10 <10PleasingFungus> resistances: 🔥: + ❄️: . 🤢: ∞ 19:31:12 <09gammafunk> I think Success is a little confusing since so many spells don't have it 19:31:21 <09gammafunk> and you're going to have a lot of monsters with all-empty column 19:31:27 <10PleasingFungus> i was considering merging it with 'accuracy' 19:31:33 <09gammafunk> although I guess you can conditionally include 19:31:36 <09gammafunk> or that maybe, yeah 19:31:37 <09hellmonk> 🤜 = 🕓 🕧 ➕ ⚔️ 19:31:41 <10PleasingFungus> not sure how to describe it well 19:31:43 <09hellmonk> perfectly clear 19:31:46 <10PleasingFungus> wow 19:31:58 <10PleasingFungus> i love it 19:32:23 my native language 19:32:25 <10PleasingFungus> tentacle-slap would be much shorter if it were 🐙🤦‍♂️ 19:32:55 <09gammafunk> Success = 😤 19:33:24 btw, this site exists: https://tikolu.net/emojimix/🦂+💐 19:33:31 <09hellmonk> last night I 🐙 🤦‍♂️ your sister 19:33:34 <10PleasingFungus> wow 19:33:50 <09hellmonk> (hoping you're familiar with the bondburger meme) 19:34:04 wow do not urbandictionary that 19:34:28 <10PleasingFungus> the great thing about urban dictionary is people can write anything in it 19:34:43 <10PleasingFungus> the other day, i saw it persuade someone that 'honkwiching' was real 19:35:05 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/928114350743502918/unknown.png 19:35:10 a pasttime from the Halem witch trials I presume 19:35:22 <10PleasingFungus> clown trials 19:37:15 I will ask my trombone player friend to confirm if this is real 19:37:15 <09hellmonk> imagining a clown tied to the stake in full makeup honking sadly as the flames rise around them 19:37:15 <10PleasingFungus> lol 19:37:15 <09hellmonk> he spritzes a little seltzer on the flames but it doesn't help 19:37:15 <09hellmonk> his custard pie is starting to burn 19:37:15 <10PleasingFungus> 😦 😦 19:37:15 <10PleasingFungus> i'm going to cry... 19:37:32 wait what is he being tried for 19:37:50 bring the Clown Code? 🤔 19:43:45 <09gammafunk> !klownpie hellmonk 19:43:45 <04Cerebot> The Killer Klown throws a pie at hellmonk. The Klown pie hits hellmonk! Lemon! hellmonk is unable to drink. 19:50:12 <08wormsofcan> @PleasingFungus what does your mockup look like for monsters with both spells and abilities? 19:50:12 <08wormsofcan> e.g. nagas 19:51:18 <10PleasingFungus> I think 'Spell' turns into 'Spell/Ability', and the right column indicates which is which 19:53:00 <08wormsofcan> hmm 19:53:31 <08wormsofcan> I think it would be better do to it like the game currently handles it and put each one in its own section 19:53:36 <10PleasingFungus> why? 19:53:41 <08wormsofcan> then you can remove the misc column and just put that data next to the "spell" 19:53:57 <10PleasingFungus> i don't think that removing the misc column gets me anything, though 19:54:08 <08wormsofcan> unless there are monsters that have spellbooks where only a subset of spells are silencable 19:54:13 <10PleasingFungus> we aren't going to use the extra horizontal space for anything, and we do want the vertical space 19:56:36 <08wormsofcan> well, unless there's a monster with the property I mentioned earlier, the misc column is not particularly useful 19:58:44 <08wormsofcan> probably what would be better if you want to save space is to colour code the spells according to their misc property then, and then remove the table headers 19:59:17 <08wormsofcan> then do like the current game does and put the fine print that explains the details right below it 20:00:56 <08wormsofcan> that should also free up more vertical space by letting you put spells into two columns 20:09:23 <10PleasingFungus> fair point re going back to 2 columns 20:09:26 <10PleasingFungus> will fiddle 20:17:22 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1403-gffcb275ae5 (34) 20:20:55 03kate-02 07* 0.28-a0-1403-gffcb275: Increase kite shield and tower shield encumbrance 10(75 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ffcb275ae500 21:05:41 03ebering02 07* 0.28-a0-1404-g4df0f36: fix: spacing 10(20 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4df0f3684d2f 21:17:38 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1404-g4df0f3684d (34) 23:34:45 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1404-g4df0f3684d (34) 23:56:11 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1404-g4df0f3684d