00:19:41 <Cbrotell> Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1389-gc726bef33b (34)
00:54:06 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1389-gc726bef33b
01:35:26 <Kelbell> Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4
01:53:02 <Kelbell> Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-731-gf56dcff6b7
04:22:46 <Lantell> Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4506-g453a05f5f4
09:41:48 <perryprog> What's the reasoning for not giving Usk piety gain when hurting monsters that don't give XP? (E.g., summons)
09:44:40 <Pinkbeast> General aversion to making summons farmable in any way?
09:46:18 <perryprog> oh, that's annoying
09:47:48 <G-Flex> summoned monsters usually don't give you stuff, for a very broad definition of "stuff"
10:07:08 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1389-gc726bef (34)
11:17:52 -!- Guest0 is now known as twelwe
11:30:12 <Nekose> Humble suggestion for shaft replacement: Pitfall trap with treasure bait. Visible to player, retrieving the treasure causes the player to be shafted with current shaft rules.
11:30:26 <Nekose> Fans of shafts get to enjoy random drops (along with item reward for the risk), and players who dont like shafts no longer experience them.
11:31:00 <geekosaur> we used to have that kind of trap
11:31:12 <geekosaur> most notably with teleport traps
11:32:13 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> don't think that creates anything like the feeling of current shafts
11:32:27 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> not least because the answer would be to usually just go do the lower floors and come back for the treasure 😛
11:32:33 <Pinkbeast> It's usually an alarm or Zot trap for that
11:32:37 <Pinkbeast> and/or apport it off
11:33:19 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> suggestion for more fruitful discussion: what is it that you dislike about current shafts?
11:33:45 <Pinkbeast> Immunity in the rest of the branch
11:33:47 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> think one must clearly identify a problem before proposing solutions 😛
11:34:03 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> pinkbeast: huh?
11:34:22 <Pinkbeast> PF: I think the way being shafted now grants shaft immunity for the rest of the branch goes too far
11:34:33 <Pinkbeast> It would suffice to be immune in levels shafted to/through.
11:35:10 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> shrug
11:36:37 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> oh, i should remove shaft immunity, though
11:37:05 <NotCheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.28-a0-963-g2ccdadd: Limit explore shafts to 1/branch/game 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 14+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2ccdaddb72c7
11:37:05 <geekosaur> %git 2ccdadd
11:39:25 <Nekose> For many players, I think the issue with shafts continues to be what it was before. It can place you in a inescapably situation.
11:39:50 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> Have you read the philosophy section in the FAQ? https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.rst#n-philosophy-pas-de-faq
11:39:56 <Nekose> in regards to just exploring below and returning to the treasure, perhaps make it collapse if the go below the level? I hadnt thought of that
11:40:28 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> > Crawl is designed to be a challenging game, and is also renowned for its randomness. However, this does not mean that wins are an arbitrary matter of luck: the skill of players will have the largest impact. So, yes, there may be situations where you are doomed - no action could have saved your life. But then, from the midgame on, most deaths are not of this type: By this stage, almost all casualties can be traced back to actual
11:40:29 <Discord|> mistakes; if not tactical ones, then of a strategical type, like wrong skilling (too broad or too narrow), unwise use of resources (too conservative or too liberal), or wrong decisions about branch/god/gear. >  > The possibility of unavoidable deaths is a larger topic in computer games. Ideally, a game like this would be really challenging and have both random layout and random course of action, yet still be winnable with perfect play. This goal seems
11:40:29 <Discord|> out of reach. Thus, computer games can be soft in the sense that optimal play ensures a win. Apart from puzzles, though, this means that the game is solved from the outset; this is where the lack of a human game-master is obvious. Alternatively, they can be hard in the sense that unavoidable deaths can occur. We feel that the latter choice provides much more fun in the long run.
11:40:57 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> that is to say, crawl has chosen, through the introduction of randomness, to occasionally allow 'unavoidable deaths'
11:41:07 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> that said, those deaths are actually extremely rare, even with shafts involved
11:41:32 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> newer players often mistakenly think that their death was inevitable once they were shafted, abyssed, encountered an out-of-depth enemy, etc
11:41:36 <Nekose> I understand and agree with the challenge of the design goal, but seeing the ongoing changes to shafts I can tell its still a debated subject
11:43:01 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i certainly agree that there's nuance here, and it's possible to go too far in one direction
11:43:01 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> but i think that you're strongly overestimating how often shafts will lead to 'inescapable situations'
11:43:01 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> it might be helpful to discuss specific cases. do you play online or off?
11:43:01 <Nekose> I like the idea of keeping them, while compromising somewhat for players that hate them. I struggled to come up with a compromise, when we arrived at the idea I suggested to have the best of both worlds
11:43:01 <Nekose> online
11:43:02 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> !lg nekose
11:43:02 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> 248. Nekose the Conjurer (L4 DrCj of Hepliaklqana), mangled by a two-headed ogre on D:5 on 2022-01-03 18:12:39, with 130 points after 3604 turns and 0:06:04.
11:43:04 <Nekose> naturally, this arrived due to a particularly nasty shaft ;)
11:43:06 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> !tv nekose
11:43:07 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> 248. Nekose, XL4 DrCj, T:3604 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.shalott.org or https://termcast.shalott.org.
11:43:10 <geekosaur> I just find shafts frustrating, to the point that a double shafting was a ^qyes for a long time
11:43:39 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hm
11:44:00 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> did you watch the tv?
11:44:06 <geekosaur> but double shaft here means getting shafted again while trying to find my way back up to where I was shafted the first time
11:44:20 <Nekose> Just reviewed it, yes
11:44:25 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> having watched it, do you feel that you understand what went wrong and how you might have improved your odds?
11:44:43 <Nekose> Naturally, i'm far from a perfect player
11:44:47 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> that looked like a great example of good gameplay provided by shafts to me, fwiw 😛
11:44:59 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> you got the excitement of trying to make your way past many dangerous enemies back to safety
11:45:27 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> if you play very fast without considering your options, you'll die often in crawl
11:45:31 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> removing shafts will do nothing to help that
11:46:47 <Nekose> If we feel this meets the design philosophy, then that would be the case, and perhaps my opinion doesn't match the consensus
11:47:05 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i guess i don't understand what seemed unfair or unavoidable about that death
11:47:24 <Pinkbeast> !log Nekose
11:47:25 <Sequell> 248. Nekose, XL4 DrCj, T:3604: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nekose/morgue-Nekose-20220103-181239.txt
11:47:28 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i'm sorry that it was frustrating
11:49:29 <Nekose> I dont want this to revolve around my specific game. I've already complaind to the discord and had my catharsis haha
11:49:29 <Nekose> Just wanted to pass along an idea we had, following our collective experiences
11:49:29 * Pinkbeast stops typing a sentence of the form "I think the thing to do here was not ..."
11:50:05 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> haha
11:50:10 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i appreciate the idea!
11:50:19 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ideas are always welcome 🙂
11:50:21 <Pinkbeast> TBH I think most of the frustration is with the way explore traps so increased the frequency of double-shafting, and that's gone
11:51:41 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> yeah, as geekosaur alluded to above
11:52:05 <Pinkbeast> (and me too, but I'm saying to Nekose that I think much player frustration is left over from those days)
11:52:36 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ah, gotcha
11:52:57 <Nekose> The frequency of "extra challenging" shafts have definitely gone down, at least in my own games.
11:53:23 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i still vaguely want to add more explore 'trap' effects, but have yet to think of any good ones
11:54:41 <NotCheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-1390-gfede4e8: Remove old shaft immunity 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fede4e889191
11:55:58 <Nekose> Well, even if doesnt replace shafts, the rest of us liked the idea of a pitfall trap with a treasure reward. You get the reward up front in exchange for unknown risk of dropping 1-3 levels.
11:55:58 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> it's a cute idea, vaguely similar to piety trove
11:55:58 <Nekose> guess its not exactly an explore trap, since its already revealed
11:55:58 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> but it doesn't really work in crawl
11:55:58 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> for the reasons we've established
11:55:58 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> possible there's some variant that could work
11:57:04 <Nekose> Well let the idea rattle around for what its worth, no hard feelings if it goes nowhere.
11:57:11 <Nekose> Thanks for all your time, and dedication to DCSS
11:57:48 <Nekose> Im off to prey at more unknown altars and see what bad combos I can recover from!
12:01:09 <NotCheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-1391-gcbb8a02: Allow scorch recasts to refresh duration (Snakku) 10(64 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cbb8a028ccc9
12:07:37 <NotCheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-1392-gb5fd6dc: Don't allow omnireflecting vampiric draining (Grit) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b5fd6dc8468d
12:23:16 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1390-gfede4e8891 (34)
12:32:40 <twelwe> now that digging drains, can the stupid formicid tricks w/ wu jian be added back in? dig lunging, serpent lash digging, etc?
12:32:53 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> sounds funny
12:34:18 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1392-gb5fd6dc846 (34)
12:34:18 <twelwe> i have a gif of serpent lash dig lunge instakill stabbing a skeletal warrior in 0 turns and this should still be in the game now that it would cause drain
12:34:41 <twelwe> i believe it was silent (!!) back then too
12:37:27 <twelwe> here it is https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23166&p=309062&hilit=+jian#p309062
12:38:17 <twelwe> back in my day a formicid could dig and only get an empty belly
12:41:26 <twelwe> while im making demands: an orb that can cause brilliance 20% of the time and permanent mana drain 1% of the time
13:51:38 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> spider vault / spider vault
13:51:52 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> does whatever a spider cault (??)
13:56:32 <NotCheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07[spidervaults] * 0.28-a0-1297-g34d9ba4: adjust grunt_spider_rune_parallel 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 14+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/34d9ba4d94b6
13:56:32 <NotCheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07[spidervaults] * 0.28-a0-1298-ga5cb09b: update grunt_spider_rune_island 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 33+ 35-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a5cb09bbc914
13:56:32 <NotCheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07[spidervaults] * 0.28-a0-1299-gb2d5ad5: adjust arachne_lair spider end 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 22+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b2d5ad50ae86
13:56:32 <NotCheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07[spidervaults] * 0.28-a0-1300-g9eda71e: update floodkiller_spider_rune_tomb 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 20+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9eda71e24961
13:56:32 <NotCheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07[spidervaults] * 0.28-a0-1301-g936b15b: Two new spider ends 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 125+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/936b15b3f20b
13:57:14 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/2335 (15 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2335
13:57:14 <NotCheibriados> Branch pull/2335 updated to be equal with spidervaults: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2335
13:57:49 <Discord|> <08w​ormsofcan> instead of traps activating on exploration, traps activate whenever you pick something up :PlogChamp:
14:08:53 <Discord|> <03w​heals> return of shadow traps
14:11:03 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i discussed it!
14:11:23 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hellmonk pointed out that it’s basically worse tele as an explore effect
14:11:28 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> which, fair
14:37:49 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hm
14:38:00 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i wonder about removing armour effects on acc
14:38:03 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i should test
14:39:24 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> for an xl 1 enchanter, 14/11/11 s/i/d, going from nude to plate armour reduces to-hit against a goblin from 37% to 34%
14:39:45 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> what weapon
14:39:51 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> er, invert that. from 66% to 63%
14:39:54 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> +2 dagger
14:39:59 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i'll test uh. a flail? next
14:40:13 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> does it change much if you're trying to hit with like a scim or sth
14:40:32 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> +0 flail goes from 56% to 56%, heh
14:41:04 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> scimitar is same as flail
14:41:14 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> lol
14:41:31 <NotCheibriados> 03hellmonk02 07* 0.28-a0-1393-gbd29554: reduce meliai frequency in spider 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd29554cb16c
14:42:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> exec axe goes from 45% to 40% to-hit
14:42:48 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> trying to think of increasingly extreme cases
14:42:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> let me try some low str numbers
14:42:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> let's say. 8 str
14:42:48 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> do tr with 8 str in gds with a giant spiked club
14:42:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ok
14:42:48 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> also do sp with 20 dex 4 str in gds with a +4 dagger
14:42:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> poor 8 str tr
14:42:48 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> lmao
14:42:48 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> pargi_irl
14:43:05 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> 8tr goes from 43% to-hit to 16% with gds
14:44:04 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> admittedly an unlikely scenario
14:44:14 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> uh
14:44:19 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hm, these numbers are nondeterministic
14:44:20 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> that's broken
14:46:01 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> reported to-hit ranges between 60 to 70% with the exact same loadout against the exact same enemy, just by x-ving repeatedly
14:46:52 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> uh oh
14:47:30 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> so i guess literally everything i posted above is valueless
14:47:34 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> will hunt this down and then try again
14:47:46 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1393-gbd29554cb1 (34)
14:56:32 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> oh no
14:56:39 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> it's... literally the armour / shield penalties...
15:02:06 <perryprog> instead of explore traps what if weapons and armor were randomly generated as trapped where if you put them on you couldn't take them off without spending a scroll, and said trapped items also had undesirable egos/enchants
15:02:06 <perryprog> you could call it "cursed items"
15:02:06 <Discord|> <05k​ate> hmm nice, i thought those had a random parameter for the specific purpose of giving a deterministic result accuracy display? i was just refactoring some related stuff in a branch yesterday and came across that stuff
15:02:24 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> you're going to laugh
15:02:41 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ^ read em and weep
15:03:02 <Discord|> <05k​ate> heck yeah
15:03:11 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> imo there should be another random parameter in there somewhere
15:03:50 <perryprog> Hey PF, did you ever get to check to confirm if my radroach bug fix can be tossed with your last refactor? I'm fairly certain the PR can be closed but just want to make sure.
15:04:01 <Discord|> <05k​ate> all the maybe_random2-like functions are great for really confusing you
15:04:07 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i think it's probably safe but i haven't checked, no
15:04:07 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> sorry
15:04:13 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> haven't had much crawl dev time lately
15:04:28 <perryprog> no worries!
15:04:29 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> anyway. our 4 str 20 dex no skill spriggan with a +4 dagger goes from 75% to 71% to-hit against a goblin when going from nude to GDS (for real this time [seriously])
15:04:48 <perryprog> oh and nice scorch change. Was thinking of suggesting that at one time but was worried it might be a bit too strong.
15:05:13 <Discord|> <05k​ate> and i don't have any objection to removing their effects on accuracy yeah - i've been poking at reworking shield penalties to be more like armour encumbrance but it's the spell penalties that i think are important there
15:05:14 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> probably scorch gets nerfed in some way at some point but i think it's good for it to be intuitive
15:05:25 <perryprog> agreed
15:05:43 <perryprog> it's probably one of the strongest second-level spells there is IMO
15:05:46 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> the unlikely 8 str 11 dex troll with giant spiked club and no skill goes from 41% to 30% to-hit against the goblin
15:06:08 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> which is the only relevant thing we've seen so far, but also 8 str troll doesn't exist
15:06:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> going up to 16 str makes it a 43% vs 37% to-hit
15:07:16 <NotCheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-1394-gc92c38d: Fix to-hit display of armour/shield penalties 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c92c38d8fe96
15:08:40 <Discord|> <05k​ate> another weird hidden thing that armour/shield penalties affect is your chance to get an offhand punch which i also removed in my branch
15:08:48 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> nice
15:08:53 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> kind of want to cut this without compensation
15:09:15 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> really it's a monster buff too (??)
15:10:24 <perryprog> (Actually, checking the other level two spells I'm almost certain scorch is the most powerful level 2 conj spell period.)
15:10:44 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i don't think monsters get those penalties already
15:11:01 <Discord|> <05k​ate> but unfortunately it's impossible to tell from any given part of melee-attack.cc whether it's player-only or not
15:11:10 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus>  monster.h:    int     armour_tohit_penalty(bool, int) const override { return 0; }
15:11:11 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> lol
15:11:13 <Discord|> <05k​ate> ahah
15:11:31 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> also i do want to pause to appreciate this classic      // This if statement is temporary, it should be removed when the     // implementation of a more universal (and elegant) to-hit calculation     // is designed. The actual code is copied from the old mons_to_hit and     // player_to_hit methods.
15:11:36 <Discord|> <05k​ate> did you know they do get EV penalties from heavy armour and shields, though! (using a completely different calculation to players, of course)
15:11:53 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i vaguely knew that about armour based on monster results
15:11:57 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> @??goblin ; robe
15:11:58 <Discord|> <04C​erebot>  goblin (g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-5 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 1 | weapons, items, doors | Corpse | XP: 1 | Sz: small | Int: human.
15:11:59 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> @??goblin ; plate armour
15:12:00 <Discord|> <04C​erebot>  goblin (g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-5 | AC/EV: 10/9 | Dam: 1 | weapons, items, doors | Corpse | XP: 1 | Sz: small | Int: human.
15:12:05 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> had no idea about shields
15:12:20 <perryprog> huh, small effect
15:12:21 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> also now imagining the poor d:1 player facing a plate armoured gob
15:12:39 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hope you rolled ie or vm!
15:14:57 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> i wonder how much this matters for our friend the d:1 fighter
15:14:57 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i think the shield penalties are -1 ev for kite shields and -2 ev for tower shields, it's a very weird calculation
15:14:57 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hm. it matters 0
15:14:59 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> scale mail not heavy enough
15:15:19 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ok, i'm just going to remove this, and we can nerf player again later
15:15:26 <Discord|> <05k​ate> sounds good
15:15:37 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ("this" = both armour & shield to-hit penalties, if that's all right)
15:16:36 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ohhh, is fights_well_unarmed the thing you were talking about a moment ago? what a strange name
15:16:38 <Discord|> <05k​ate> yeah, i'll push my shield/offhand stuff later to a branch later maybe but this makes sense either way and it probably merges pretty cleanly
15:16:40 <Discord|> <05k​ate> yep!
15:17:37 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1394-gc92c38d8fe (34)
15:17:56 <Discord|> <05k​ate> the armour penalty bit there i think barely matters but also is completely undocumented, i wonder if it got added later along the line somewhere because the learndb entry for it mentions all the other checks for offhand attacks but not that one
15:24:27 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> good q
15:28:04 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> ok, just checked and it goes all the way back to 'initial revision'
15:28:17 <Discord|> <05k​ate> nice
15:28:40 <Discord|> <05k​ate> it does seem like the kind of realism-y thing that would have existed since forever ago
15:28:41 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus>  if (you.burden_state == BS_UNENCUMBERED     && random2(20) < you.skills[SK_UNARMED_COMBAT]     && random2(1 + heavy_armour) < 2)
15:29:04 <Discord|> <05k​ate> oh wow, great that it checked encumbrance too
15:35:41 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> yep, thought you'd enjoy that
15:35:53 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus>  All ego items are noted with special adjectives but not all items noted in this way need have a special property (they often have some positive or negative enchantment, though):  :general: glowing, runed; :metal armours: shiny; :leather armours: dyed; :other armours: embroidered.   enjoying this section of the manual
15:44:34 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> huh, the manual's description of armour skill is somewhere between misleading and wrong
15:44:35 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> sweet
15:45:37 <NotCheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.28-a0-1395-g4f6bc67: Remove to-hit penalties from armour & shields 10(55 seconds ago, 10 files, 26+ 114-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4f6bc678fa5d
15:59:44 <Discord|> <05k​ate> oh yeah, that armour section used to be even weirder i think, until not long ago it claimed that "mainly armour skill is for increasing the ac you get from cloaks/gloves etc"
16:00:01 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i think it might just have been an unintuitive choice of wording and that's not what it was trying to imply, but that's how it read to me at least
16:09:36 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> nice
16:10:18 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> > Mainly, though, it increases the AC provided by other types of armour (gloves, cloaks, etc.).  ha!
16:12:36 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> oops, that was my fault
16:12:37 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> %git 6669bab64cf
16:12:37 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> mea culpa
16:12:37 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> PleasingFungus * 0.26-a0-653-g6669bab: Update the manual (1 year, 3 months ago, 1 file, 138+ 201-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6669bab64cf7
16:20:16 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1395-g4f6bc678fa (34)
16:25:31 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.28-a0-1395-g4f6bc678fa (34)
16:31:55 <perryprog> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/2331 is an interesting bug by the way. Not sure if there's any good way to fix it (if it is really a bug, anyway)
16:31:55 <perryprog> Cause is basically just this line:
16:31:55 <perryprog> !source beam.cc:2091
16:31:55 <Sequell> Can't find beam.cc.
16:32:14 <perryprog> ooookay. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc#L2091
16:33:38 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i think it was refactored in some way to specifically always centre the pool on the thing you aimed at, to fix an earlier iteration of this bug
16:33:51 <perryprog> I guess you could say
16:33:56 <perryprog> it was pushed away 😎
16:34:08 <perryprog> and yeah, that does seem to be the case.
16:34:10 <Discord|> <05k​ate> so possibly it could just always push that location back into splash_coords and apply waterlogging even if no pool is creatred
16:34:27 <perryprog> oh yeah, that's a good idea
16:34:46 <perryprog> will do that after I eat; thanks
17:08:11 <perryprog> Ended up switching create_feat_splash to return a set of coord_defs, just because that results in no jankyness when making sure you aren't adding a duplicate pos()
17:08:14 <perryprog> Hopefully that's fine
17:23:00 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/2336 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2336
17:23:00 <NotCheibriados> 03Perry Fraser02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2336 * 0.28-a0-1395-g6a717ee: fix: phial should always engulf the center target 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 10+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6a717eeeb7e6
17:29:30 <NotCheibriados> 03Perry Fraser02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2336 * 0.28-a0-1396-g2219c1f: fixup! fix: phial should always engulf the center target 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2219c1f030ed
17:40:18 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i put together a spreadsheet for comparing shield penalties if anyone's curious: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zDo90ymlnReYon9f-yqEtO-J7oUrTlfZ3eTwa1EHb98/edit?usp=sharing
17:40:54 <Discord|> <05k​ate> i'm relatively happy with how the numbers ended up but the impact is definitely a bit more substantial for large species
17:41:05 <Discord|> <05k​ate> probably that's fine since the current behaviour is really silly, but maybe it can be tuned better
17:41:44 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: offhand (4 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/offhand
17:41:46 <NotCheibriados> 03kate-02 07[offhand] * 0.28-a0-1396-g30f9e12: Rework shield penalties 10(2 days ago, 8 files, 33+ 68-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/30f9e124c23c
17:41:46 <NotCheibriados> 03kate-02 07[offhand] * 0.28-a0-1397-g5417f54: Base aux attack chance on XL instead of str+dex 10(27 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5417f544f832
17:41:46 <NotCheibriados> 03kate-02 07[offhand] * 0.28-a0-1398-g0d4d44d: Rework offhand punch checks 10(27 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0d4d44d39169
17:41:46 <NotCheibriados> 03kate-02 07[offhand] * 0.28-a0-1399-g20e9d68: Refactor aux attack accuracy 10(26 hours ago, 6 files, 21+ 21-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/20e9d68510be
18:28:14 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> hm
18:28:14 <Discord|> <10P​leasingFungus> @kate i haven’t done the math yet, but would new shields make fighter kite shield starts make sense again?
18:28:24 <Discord|> <05k​ate> quite possibly yeah, the initial penalties are a lot lower