00:26:41 -!- mhcerri9 is now known as mhcerri 00:34:05 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1158-g983688c: feat: give an extra weapon plus for a decent sk_fighting gift 10(65 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/983688cd1260 00:34:05 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1159-ge3e17ad: fix: remove some dead book code from ng-setup 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e3e17ad7c464 00:34:05 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1160-gd2aa3c6: feat: give stealth wanderers a chance at rare darts 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 14+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d2aa3c62a667 00:34:05 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1161-g10c988f: feat: give oddly shaped wanderers some protection 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 51+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/10c988fd2c46 00:34:05 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1162-gc58f14d: feat: don't give out kite shields to normal sized wanderers 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c58f14d8f347 00:34:54 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 00:51:53 <12ebering> @hellmonk @gammafunk I did some more newwn tweaking. I think it’s in a good place to go live. Let me know if you have thoughts, otherwise I’ll do the commit cleanup and merge soon. 00:57:21 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1152-g9c71ebef14 (34) 01:15:25 <09gammafunk> Cool can take a look later in 5-8 hrs 01:36:28 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4462-gbb5794c499 02:25:03 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07* 0.28-a0-1153-gf74599e: text: quotes for Chei abilities 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 31+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f74599e7d47b 03:02:13 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 03:02:13 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 04:03:54 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1153-gf74599e7d4 (34) 04:23:29 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4462-gbb5794c499 05:20:37 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1163-ga411681: fixup! feat: give oddly shaped wanderers some protection 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a411681e089d 05:21:23 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 05:25:08 04Build failed for 08greaterwanderer @ a411681e 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/1577757929 05:30:38 <12ebering> rip 05:30:38 <04Cerebot> rip 06:31:10 <12ebering> oh, we have chei back, should have just fixup! fixup!'d 06:32:18 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1163-gf0f116a: fixup! feat: give oddly shaped wanderers some protection 10(77 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f0f116ac6967 06:33:06 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 06:47:09 <09gammafunk> %git 06:47:10 <04Cerebot> Edgar A. Bering IV * 0.28-a0-1153-gf74599e: text: quotes for Chei abilities (4 hours ago, 1 file, 31+ 0-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f74599e7d47b 08:02:04 <09gammafunk> compiling newwanderer now, but given the commit history 08:02:21 <09gammafunk> not sure if I want to just look at a big squash of the branch or what 08:02:32 <12ebering> prob best to just look at a big squash if you want to read a diff 08:02:36 <09gammafunk> yeah 08:02:49 <12ebering> or just start reading from create_wanderer() at head in ng-wanderer since it's close to a complete re-write 08:03:36 <09gammafunk> I'll do a squash but aim for that function in particular 08:04:41 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1164-g0f13a86: fixup! fixup! feat: give oddly shaped wanderers some protection 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0f13a86b1fe6 08:05:25 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 08:22:39 <09gammafunk> the ebering warper special 08:22:39 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/920334982621310986/unknown.png 08:23:16 <12ebering> that is an op roll 08:23:25 <12ebering> boomers, nets, and tele other 08:23:27 <12ebering> enjoy yr win 08:23:34 <09gammafunk> no ledas, rejected 08:25:27 <09gammafunk> seems to roll pretty high on number of spells granted, when I get spells 08:25:27 <09gammafunk> that was the lowest I saw so far at two 08:25:27 <12ebering> if you get a "good" spell skill you get either a job book or a 4 spell randbook 08:25:27 <09gammafunk> makes me wonder what the average number of spells granted it (both absolute and conditional on you getting a spell, although maybe that's not the way to think about it now) 08:25:27 <12ebering> and a decent one gives you a wanderer 2 spell 4 level combo 08:26:06 <09gammafunk> yeah next char rolled a lot 08:26:06 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/920335851911798794/unknown.png 08:26:29 <05kate> the main wanderer thing i'd like to see personally is no job books as options at all, maybe just making that always be 4 spell randbooks would be better 08:26:30 <09gammafunk> looks like wiz book mixed in 08:26:55 <12ebering> yeah the wiz book is a job book possibility 08:27:42 <05kate> since job book starts tend to just make you be that class except you start with really bad skills (maybe less so after this PR) and a bunch of extra stuff on top of that 08:28:24 <09gammafunk> right, that does seem a pretty reasonable aim 08:28:40 <09gammafunk> > You begin with the following items: a +1 quarterstaff, a +0 robe; and the > following spell memorised: Shock; and the following spells available to > _memorise: Static Discharge, Swiftness, Airstrike. next char sort of case in point 08:29:21 <09gammafunk> definitely loving the skilling that I'm seeing so far 08:29:26 <09gammafunk> they're not just random junk skills 08:30:20 <09gammafunk> although the first char and it's poison magic loadout combined with armour skill, enchanted scale, and a 52% fail rate on sting did seem to read some strange advice on how to be a successful hybrid 08:32:01 <09gammafunk> not sure that we'd care to prevent "builds" like that though, player just has to decide if they want to use their spells or use their armour+weapon(falchion in the case of our poison wanderer) 08:32:32 <12ebering> Yeah I think that a certain amount of conflict like that is on brand for wn 08:36:54 <09gammafunk> my sense based on looking at a bunch of these is that the number of spells we're giving when we are giving spells is a bit too high 08:38:32 <09gammafunk> 5+ spells quite often 08:38:32 <09gammafunk> but I would certainly defer to more formal sampling in that regard (which, FR?) 08:38:32 <09gammafunk> would be kind of handy to have a wanderer sampler 08:38:33 <12ebering> wnstat 08:39:10 <09gammafunk> maybe I should do just that, but you'd probably also need skills and stats 08:40:31 <09gammafunk> yeah now I'm getting a bunch of two spell wanderers in a row, so who knows 08:45:05 <12ebering> hmm, stuff to ponder a bit 08:45:05 <12ebering> can def remove the job books 08:46:25 <09gammafunk> minor quibble, maybe _wanderer_role_weapon_select() should be called _wanderer_role_offense_select() now, or something like that 08:48:35 <12ebering> might do 3-spell randbooks for school good_equip, a 4-spell but level capped (riff on minor magic) for spellcasting good_equip, so that the range of spells a wn can roll is 2-6 and a bit more biased to the low end 08:49:33 <09gammafunk> yeah I suppose there's some tension between the fact that randbooks are a lot more random and trying to keep the starting spell list sufficiently small 08:49:46 <09gammafunk> because random spells are harder to string together for the player in terms of progression 08:49:57 <09gammafunk> but maybe just keeping the spell count down is the bigger priority 09:02:23 <08nicolae> it might be a little easier if they're all the same school or two at least 09:02:29 <08nicolae> you can do that with randbooks 09:15:27 Hello, recently i submitted a PR to re-add potions of cure mutation, and it was rejected and commit https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/564068e7f76a255be66b863b7d6c8c3de81906bb was referenced 09:18:18 Currently potions of mutations are problematic because they can frequently add more mutations than they remove, and a big problem is that bad mutations are so much worse than good mutations 09:18:18 There's a lot of cases where players quaff multiple mutation potions just to get rid of 1 mutation, only for it to not hit that mutation, or to hit that mutation but add another mutation that might be even worse 09:18:47 Good mutations just don't match up to bad mutations, such that the optimal case right now is to only hold mutation pots for cases of heavy malmutation, and to never try them otherwise. 09:18:48 <12ebering> Yep 09:18:56 <12ebering> Is it? 09:19:17 <12ebering> Malmutation has a chance to remove an existing good mutation instead of giving you a bad mutation. Being mutated is a defense 09:19:54 If you look at bad mutations, you can get frail, inability to read scrolls when threated, antenna (lose AC), etc. 09:20:09 <12ebering> Antenna is a good mutation but ok 09:20:38 Personally, I recently had a game where I had antenna, and a +2 artifact helmet with +7 dex 09:20:59 I tried quaffing multiple !mut with hopes of removing it, only to never be able to do so and get even more (bad) muts 09:21:59 I think this post is worth checking out, regarding player opinion towards the mutation pot changes https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/n6vtyo/potions_of_mutation_nerfed/ 09:22:40 In fact, that one game I was driven to such desparation to just be rid of my mutations, that I converted to Jiyva, and then was killed by Makhleb's wrath in abyss while trying to farm piety. Felt extremely bad 09:24:53 <12ebering> Have you tried adapting to your mutations? Since desperation plays to remove them keep not working out for you. 09:24:53 I know this is just anecdotal, but the mutation system pretty much ruined this : https://cbro.berotato.org/morgue/sauken/morgue-sauken-20211209-060515.txt 09:24:53 Well the thought process was I can either go into zot with these awful mutations, or try to get rid of them (in what I thought was a safer way) and then proceed into zot 09:25:06 Here especially is a case that really annoyed me 09:25:08 27322 | Bailey | Lost mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [potion of | mutation] 27322 | Bailey | Lost mutation: You have a pair of small horns on your head. | [potion of mutation] 27322 | Bailey | Lost mutation: You can roll at foes to attack. [potion of | mutation] 27322 | Bailey | Gained mutation: You have a pair of small antennae on your | head. [potion of mutati 09:25:37 As you can see I used mutation to remove the horns to wear my artifact helmet, only to gain antennae 09:26:07 As well as losing the ability to regenerate when monsters are present 09:26:30 At this point it felt like I was losing control of my character and that initial decision to quaff mutation pretty much filled me with regret 09:26:38 <12ebering> I'm gonna say this exactly once: complete player control over their mutation set is not a design goal. Mutations are supposed to be a long-term strategic change to the character that forces the player to adapt. 09:28:00 That's fine, but what that results in is players just completely ignoring mut potions (I.E. not interacting with them) and using them as a worse version of cure mut) 09:28:24 <12ebering> Does it? You quaffed one sight unseen on D:7 in the game you linked. 09:29:13 Exactly, and seeing as how that pretty much led to me ending my own run to remove it, that made me decide not to try them ever again if I was trying to win 09:29:34 <12ebering> I do think there are some issues with the probability distribution of how each !mut shifts a character, and something could be done there to make the "get mutated to be resistant to the bad mutations later" a better proposition without being a no brainer. 09:31:32 <12ebering> Well, that's a lesson to take from your game. This isn't a gameplay channel so I won't dig in but I will say that you made several strategic mistakes in your decisions about how you interacted with the mutation system. The game punished you for them, ultimately with death. 09:31:32 Here's the current problem, more succinct: if a player ever becomes heavily mutated, or percieves they have some muts which are so bad so as to risk ending the run by proceeding, their only recourse is to switch to Zin or Jiyva and farm piety 09:31:32 <12ebering> Yes. To get that mutated requires some serious misplays, the remedy should be dramatic. 09:31:32 (Drive-by ideasmithing: could also assign a weight to "how debilitating is having this mut" for each mut, and have that affect the probabilities of stuff for removing muts? (No clue how that second part would work, though.)) 09:33:47 <10PleasingFungus> more complexity, especially complexity that is either invisible to players or difficult to explain, seems less than ideal 09:34:14 One of the big issues I have with mutations right now is that it's a one-way street - You get mutated once, and then you have to deal with mutations the rest of the game, as potions of mut will never fully clear them 09:34:22 <10PleasingFungus> ..so? 09:34:32 Simple fix: Add mutations first, THEN remove mutations 09:35:28 This way it has a greater chance of targetting bad mutations that the player probably wants adjusted 09:36:23 ah, true PF 09:38:11 Wait I think I got that backwards lol 09:38:18 But still, removing after adding would shift the balance a bit since currently, const int MIN_REMOVED = 2; const int MAX_REMOVED = 3; const int MIN_ADDED = 1; const int MAX_ADDED = 3; 09:38:51 Because mutations are removed before being added, that leads to a waste in the removal potential 09:39:16 Thoughts? 09:39:49 Sure, but there is a nice dynamic where mutations are something that you /must/ deal with in the long-term—it's like a gradually worsening disease that you have to work harder and harder against. 09:39:58 <10PleasingFungus> is it like that? 09:40:12 I'm not sure it's as interesting to the player if it's something that you can always fully mitigate 09:40:21 pfft I have like three wins, so take what I say with a grain of salt 09:40:38 All monsters currently malmutate, so it makes sense for potions of mutate to slant the other way imo 09:40:49 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/potion.cc 09:41:09 It currently removes, then adds. 09:42:28 <12ebering> delete_mutation(RANDOM_MUTATION, "potion of mutation", false); 09:42:40 <12ebering> it has a better chance of removing a bad mutation that you currently have if it removes first 09:43:05 Yes, that is true, but for a low number of mutations it will waste removals 09:44:47 <12ebering> This is by design. merryprog pointed it out already: it's a feature of the mutation system that once you start it's hard to stop. 09:46:18 <12ebering> I do think that this potion can apply its effect in a better way, but I don't think that making it easy to "clear the mutations I don't like" is part of the better way. 09:47:12 <12ebering> Also: in situations where you're "horribly mutated" no removals are "wasted", and in situations where you aren't but there's one mutation you want gone the potion will remove it (it just might do other things to you, too, such is the cost). 09:48:10 It it also true though that mutation pots can remove a mutation, and the same pot can re-add that very same mutation 09:48:22 Adding then removing would mitigate this 09:49:34 Although by adding other mutations first it might not hit that specific mutation, on average it will remove that mutation and give you new ones 09:51:25 I think that makes more sense, or at least worth trying out 09:52:02 <12ebering> Hate to break it to you, but the probability of removing a particular bad mutation as a net outcome of !mut is worse the other way around. 09:52:57 Catching up, I would not have tried to get rid of antennae to wear a +2 helmet, Dex+7 or no. # that said I do think mutations are in an odd place but I also don't think there's any obvious solution 09:53:12 <08nicolae> "add better mutations" 09:53:14 <08nicolae> imo 09:53:31 <08nicolae> note that i am not a dev and do not have any thoughts on mutations 09:53:34 <08nicolae> wait shit i am a dev 09:53:38 ha sucker 09:53:40 I was playing a paletonga, so I was really trying to get my EV to like around 20ish, since AC was high and diminishing returns and all that 09:53:40 <08nicolae> but not, like, a mutation-knower dev 09:55:16 Did I really see you losing Palendonga roll to a potion? 09:55:36 No it was gained 09:55:44 Which I'm not sure what happened... probably a bug 09:55:56 <12ebering> Better good mutations is a good direction; I also think that making it more likely to reach max mutation levels (like new J does) (somehow I don't have details) and making mutations protect against further mutation (again don't have the details of the distributions) 09:56:01 <12ebering> there's a mutation that makes your donger roll longer 09:56:04 <12ebering> you gained and lost it 09:58:03 <08nicolae> i will brainstorm some good mutations. maybe just a mutation that makes you a lil faster when moving. like boots of running but genes of running 09:58:03 <12ebering> no 09:58:03 Powerthirst vibes 09:58:03 Much of the trouble here seems to have been going to Slime without a way to nuke shining eyes from a distance 09:58:26 It was kinda of a rollercoaster - I thought if I could simply get jiyva altar, then I wouldn't have to worry as I could get max piety and remove all the mutations anyway 09:58:31 <08nicolae> a mutation that has an effect that scales with other mutations, so like "your genetic mutations make your skin tough" and then it's like AC +1 for each non-species mut you have 09:58:36 Little did I know that the piety system had changed to exploration based 09:58:58 (our change to make Zin remove all muts on a gifting timeout is good ahem sorry) 09:59:36 <12ebering> I do like that one 09:59:40 Yeah I just assumed I could have jiyva vacuum vaults and cleanse me but... no such luck 10:00:00 <12ebering> if it's not too much trouble can you PR it or at least send me the commits to see if it could be easily lifted 10:00:27 <09gammafunk> !lm sauken pane br.enter=slime 10:00:32 <12ebering> anyway this is not #crawl so let's not do a full postmortem on this game. Suffice it to say: mistakes were made 10:00:32 <04Cerebot> 1. [2021-12-09 05:38:21] sauken the Slayer (L25 PaNe of Makhleb) entered the Pits of Slime on turn 63981. (Lair:5) 10:00:36 <09gammafunk> sauken next time use god abilties to avoid mutations 10:00:43 <09gammafunk> makhleb solves all your problems here 10:01:15 <08nicolae> yeah, one thing i've learned in my recent period of getting better at crawl is that resistances are nice but the best resistance is just murdering things before they can hurt you 10:01:26 ^ that's why I love WJC 10:01:42 my first or second WJC win I one-hit TRJ. 10:01:50 I didn't know that jiyva piety system had changed so I didn't care that I was getting malmutated since I thought I could easily shed it with the new ability (?) 10:02:11 <09gammafunk> I think we want to keep working on the mutation system, possibly including some relatively major reworks to the entire system, but yeah it's not going to come in the form of re-adding easy sources of mutation removal 10:02:26 <09gammafunk> yeah, perils of playing trunk 10:02:43 I wouldn't say a rare potion is exactly an "easy" source, maybe hard sources of mutation removal is fine 10:02:53 But like switching to a god just to do that seems kinda of insane 10:04:24 <09gammafunk> well you could have recovered even after all those mutations, and this was just a case of you not knowing how Jiyva worked. Certain strategic mistakes can be hard to recover from 10:04:24 Mutations are a global issue, tying them into jiyva is thematic sure, but tying it to zin seems a bit weird; like, why just this one specific god? 10:04:24 <09gammafunk> I mean, it's not one specific god; jiyva does deal in mutations, as does Xom 10:04:34 <09gammafunk> and nothing to say other gods couldn't in the future 10:04:53 <09gammafunk> if you mean a god power of "cure all mutations", it's probably because Zin does that, and we don't need a bunch of gods with that particular aspect 10:04:54 <08nicolae> bring back pakellas as the god of genetic experimentation. here, drink this potion. now i don't know what's in it 10:05:32 Basically, I felt punished in that game for ever trying to even interact with mutation system. And once that genie was out of the bottle, it just got worse... and worse... and worse... 10:06:01 ebering: it's a mess from before I had good commit discipline but if I'm feeling keen I'll send you a patch; https://github.com/damerell/crawl/commit/d3798b4e7505a8ab047a11762fbcb77fe4e1ac7d is the bulk of it, though 10:06:01 Specifically with head gear though, if you do have antenna, by removing the mutation first and then adding, you have the chance to get antenna OR horns 10:06:19 I mean, if it's done right, that can be a compelling mechanic where if you don't deal with this long-term problem "right" it ends up becoming a continuously deterioration of "aaaa" 10:07:21 Honestly playing that game felt really shitty and not fun at all lol. I mean it's compelling in the way that it compels me to never touch !cmut until zot 5 yeah 10:07:29 !lg . op-- won -log 10:07:30 1. damerell, XL27 OpGl, T:116812: https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/damerell/morgue-damerell-20171211-041855.txt 10:07:41 And the issue is that there is no real way to "deal with it" other than not drinking mure !mut lest the problem gets worse 10:07:55 <09gammafunk> there is also just the factor that players tend to over-react to having a sizeable set of negative mutations and don't take care to deal with them by employing some more careful tactics 10:08:03 ^ I was pretty salty about finding 13 orbs of fire and 3 mut potions total :-) 10:08:11 <09gammafunk> yes, this is not true, and is a mistake people frequently make 10:08:55 <09gammafunk> > And the issue is that there is no real way to "deal with it" other than not drinking mure !mut lest the problem gets worse responding to this 10:09:04 <09gammafunk> need to extend that bridge bot to handle replies 10:09:06 Pinkbeast, now imagine if you had actually drank 1 of those mut pots, got frail, drank another to get rid of frail, and then only had 1 pot left? 10:10:38 <12ebering> maybe I'd just play a little more conservatively with frail 1 10:10:38 <09gammafunk> getting stuck with a bunch of bad mutations does not end your game, right, it may force you to change tactics 10:10:38 Does it really force you to change tactics though? 10:10:38 <12ebering> Yes. 10:10:38 I might stairdance and lure more than I otherwise would have? I guess? 10:10:38 <09gammafunk> yes, if you don't want to lose 10:10:38 <12ebering> You chose to change gods in a wacky way and it killed you. 10:10:38 Is that the goal? 10:10:38 Sauken: ah actually I did quaff two of them early to get rid of blurry vision, which seemed bad, got frail, and then deeply regretted using 2/3 of them up on a mere case of blurry vision :-) 10:10:39 <09gammafunk> you may end up resting more, fighting fewer monsters at a time potentially, sure 10:10:51 <09gammafunk> this also occurs when you play species with e.g. lower innate HP 10:10:51 Pinkbeast: Typical experience lol 10:11:12 I mean is that really fun though? Just sounds obnoxious 10:11:15 <09gammafunk> getting frail 2 or even 3 does not end your game, it makes your char weaker 10:11:33 Maybe all mutations should be something that is bad/good, like antennas 10:11:34 Sauken: I think in this case (speaking ofc as your fellow player) I would change tactics by thinking more about ways to nuke shining eyes with extreme prejudice. 10:11:38 <09gammafunk> if you want to have a system of bad mutations, you want them to be "obnoxious" 10:11:54 ... and having a way to do that to fragile distant annoying targets is a good thing 10:11:59 <09gammafunk> there is no way to make compelling bad mutations without having them adjust your tactics in some substantive way 10:12:21 What about the lose ability to read scrolls when threatened mutation? 10:12:28 It's extremely opaque 10:13:30 What exactly is "threatened", and how does that affect gameplay? It's impossible to just avoid situations where you could get low on hp, and it can make those situations into death 10:13:47 (eg this Palendonger has no Throwing, little Evo, 12 Invo but has given up Makhleb's Destruction... and is carrying 18 scrolls of fog. 10:13:50 ) 10:14:17 <12ebering> Conveniently there's now a menu that shows mutation descriptions and elaborates on them 10:14:43 <09gammafunk> yeah, in the case of that mutation, you sometimes lose scroll access for a while when taking damage 10:14:49 <09gammafunk> the A screen would clear that up 10:15:05 Yes, but how much damage? How often? How long? 10:15:14 Every character takes damage, so what is the counterplay there? 10:15:18 <09gammafunk> and it's pretty manageable since you can still use potions/god powers/spells etc to cover yourself 10:15:27 <09gammafunk> use those things I mentioned 10:15:30 (also, one Rolling Charge?) 10:16:47 <09gammafunk> since you have multiple ways to solve problems in this game, scrolls are not the only way 10:16:53 I mean, in the end optimal play is just to not risk any bad mutations since you stand to lose much more than you stand to gain 10:16:59 This comment puts it pretty well 10:17:13 Well, no, gambling was never a good strategy! But it could be fun. Much like how worshipping Xom is fun, but far from optimal. Optimal play has always been to save mut potions for clearing life-threatening mutations. I guess my point is that this change doesn't alter this optimal strategy in any way. So the marginal effect of the change is just to further punish any deviation from what is optimal. Making optimal play increasingly non-negotiable = making i 10:17:34 (This is a reply to the change that nerfed potions of mutation) 10:17:48 2nd part : Making optimal play increasingly non-negotiable = making it increasingly a "no-brainer" (which the design philosophy generally treats as a bad thing). I'm just wondering what that's intended to accomplish in this case. 10:23:09 (unrelated to mutations but I'm surprised you spent 5 turns taking off an amulet when Makhleb had just dropped 4 demons on you (including a neqoxec)) 10:23:09 <10PleasingFungus> this is just more reason for me to retheme amulets to belts 10:23:09 <10PleasingFungus> ff14 removed belts so we have to add them 10:23:09 <10PleasingFungus> it's the cycle of life 10:23:09 <09gammafunk> I would agree that it's optimal to not risky any bad mutations from e.g. malmut, but I would not agree re: optimal strategy being never using !mutation save for curing malmut/contam/etc results, because you can actually have positive expected value if you have a good stack of them. Namely you are more likely to end up net positive by trying to quaff at least one. There is definitely some debate about that, but top players definitely 10:23:10 routinely quaff mut pots to gain good mutations 10:23:13 "You remove your belt. Your trousers fall down! --More--" 10:23:26 <09gammafunk> And some players elect to never do so, which is fine 10:23:34 <10PleasingFungus> pinkbeast: lol 10:23:57 Yeah, I forgot that amulet switching got nerfed so I tried it. Woops. 10:24:08 Honestly it was a mercy at that point 10:24:11 <08nicolae> absolutely not. do you want the neck hole to go out of business 10:24:20 <09gammafunk> But in any case, it's basically dev team consensus that the basic idea of mutation roulette is ok in principle, for now, yet we're open to good ideas for improving it (that aren't just making it easier to remove the negative results, that is) 10:24:28 <10PleasingFungus> it's uh... hm. probably better not to name that hole, huh 10:25:05 <08nicolae> The Neck And Waist Hole 10:25:08 It would solve one issue, unless you add two-waisted ogres. 10:25:16 <10PleasingFungus> gammafunk: i think the argument was something like: (1) you will never die from not having good muts (2) you might die from having a bad mut (3) therefore, you should never quaff mut, because it might cause you to die and won't save you from dying I don't think i agree with this, but i think this is the premise 10:25:27 <10PleasingFungus> pinkbeast: the issue is, once cats can wear belts, we'd have to allow them to wear hats 10:25:30 <10PleasingFungus> it's a slippery slope! 10:25:59 <09gammafunk> right, and I'm saying that many good crawl players (including myself) disagree with this premise, so there's not clear cut "optimality" here 10:26:05 <10PleasingFungus> ok, we're agreed. 🙂 10:26:37 <09gammafunk> I do understand the gist of the "never-mutate" crowd's argument though 10:29:35 <09gammafunk> and certainly it probably doesn't lose them many games; it is fun to think of a crawl seed where it would be obvious that the best way to proceed is to quaff one of a sizeable pile of mutation pots because you were just not strong enough and then you got a really nice one that made you strong enough to survive 10:29:35 <10PleasingFungus> generally crawl isn't hard enough to force mut use 10:29:35 <10PleasingFungus> which is sort of a funny way to think about it 10:29:35 <10PleasingFungus> but it's just generally true that you can play very unoptimally and still win 10:29:35 <09gammafunk> but such a seed is probably rarer than a seed where 10:29:35 <10PleasingFungus> bullying is illegal gamma. 10:29:45 <05kate> aha, we've finally come to the real solution: make everything harder so you need to risk trying to get good muts to win 10:29:52 <09gammafunk> I'm for it 10:32:44 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1153-gf74599e (34) 10:33:05 <05kate> I wonder if like, Naga is an edge case where !mut is unusually good for example, since you're especially likely to get species-unique mutations and upgrade to poison gas breath 10:33:30 <05kate> probably not a particularly big factor but the species-unique muts are fun imo 10:33:34 <09gammafunk> yeah 10:33:44 <09gammafunk> a species-unique goodmut for every species? 10:33:47 <08nicolae> yeah there should be more imo 10:33:51 <09gammafunk> but then what would humans get :wfrHmm: 10:33:57 <08nicolae> More Human 10:34:02 Yeah and you can't lose your tail slot 10:34:02 <10PleasingFungus> what would mummies get? 10:34:07 Bonus stealth from being _really_ generic 10:34:23 <09gammafunk> felids would get a scarf mutation, we know that much 10:34:30 <10PleasingFungus> gross 10:36:13 -!- Rjs- is now known as Rjs 10:36:54 <05kate> I think Naga and pa/ba do them pretty well by having minor-ish but noticeable upgrades to their inmates. don't think it'd be possible for every species but there's probably room in that space at least 10:37:43 <08nicolae> gargoyle -> molten gargoyle 10:38:13 <09gammafunk> ba don't have one, do they? 10:38:23 <08nicolae> octopode? noctopode. ninth tentacle. boom. 10:38:41 <05kate> I thought they could get Hop range? might be misremembering or they just get that naturally 10:39:01 <08nicolae> octopode-specific mut that lets them squeeze through statues and iron grates 10:39:29 <09gammafunk> seems they get that upgrade naturally 10:39:58 <09gammafunk> ??barachi 10:39:58 <04Cerebot> barachi[1/5]: New frog-like species in 0.20. Has a Hop ability letting the player choose a spot up to 4 tiles away, landing them randomly in a 5x5 area. Range upgrades to 6 at XL13. Barachians have Slow 1 (move 1.2, faster than Na), are amphibious, and have average stats and slightly above-average apts. In addition, they have +1 LOS for a total of 8. 10:40:40 <05kate> ah yeah, don't have the repo up now but I just remembered the mut having multiple levels from implementing the targeter 10:40:54 <09gammafunk> obv +2 LOS is the good mut option for ba 10:42:52 <05kate> +2 LOS has to be a tiles-only mut to penalise tiles players for their foolishness 10:42:52 <08nicolae> what the 10:42:52 What file are all mutes listed in? 10:42:52 <05kate> console can't do +2 LOS, it's already at the limit with +1! 10:42:52 mutation-data.h 10:42:52 Thanks 10:43:02 kate> pfft, time to require hugeterm 10:43:29 <09gammafunk> tiles-only mut to force console glyph mode 10:43:38 <09gammafunk> talk about a fatal mutation 10:43:59 <08nicolae> no i mean the foolishness part 😠 10:45:03 <05kate> angband/nethack style hallucination but it's just console glyphs instead 10:45:46 Where is the mutate function defined? 10:45:55 I want to see what mutations can be pulled 10:46:13 "pulled" ? 10:46:48 Like mutation-data.h has a bunch of mutations, but a lot of them are species only/god only/defunct 10:46:59 I want to see what mutations can be activated from the mutation pot 10:47:12 specifcally in potion.cc 10:47:28 Nonzero weight in mutation-data.h 10:47:46 <09gammafunk> !source mutation_def 10:47:47 <04Cerebot> Can't find mutation_def. 10:47:49 <09gammafunk> rip 10:49:30 <09gammafunk> but it's the top of mutation-data.h 10:49:30 <09gammafunk> that struct 10:49:30 Oh I see, thanks 10:49:30 <09gammafunk> that defines what the entries are 10:49:46 { MUT_READ_SAFETY, 10, 1, mutflag::bad | mutflag::xom, false, "inability to read while threatened", {"You sometimes lose the ability to read scrolls when taking damage.", "", ""}, {"You lose the ability to read scrolls when threatened.", "", ""}, {"You can once more read scrolls while threatened.", "", ""}, }, 10:49:55 Holy why is the weight on this so high 10:51:05 <09gammafunk> same weight as frail 10:51:53 Blurry vision had weight 10, and it replaced it 10:52:02 Same weight as detorioration 10:52:09 But robust has 5 weight and frail has 10? 10:52:37 <12ebering> there are fewer bad mutations 10:52:42 <12ebering> you would do well to look at the total weight 10:53:02 If there are fewer bad mutations, that makes a high weight more impactful not less 10:53:16 More good mutations means that robust is actually even more than 2x rare as frail 10:54:08 Anyway, I was going to compile a percentages list based off the weights to have a more objective perspective of the viability of mut pots 10:54:14 This is just some initial canvassing 10:56:06 FWIW blurry vision seems to have been weight 10 ever since mutations got weights. 10:56:08 <09gammafunk> a google calc sheet is a good way of tabulating the data, provided that the data and the probabilities and average results you derive are correct, etc 10:57:12 Should be as simple as weight/total weight = percentage, I'll have a different column for good muts and bad muts, ty 11:01:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1165-g636019e: fix: don't announce empty wanderer inventories 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/636019eaf8fe 11:01:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1166-ge2cadff: fixup! fixup! fixup! feat: give oddly shaped wanderers some protection 10(85 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e2cadfffd688 11:01:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1167-g7746f4a: fixup! feat: don't overfill wanderers hands 10(85 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7746f4ab0613 11:01:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1168-g9f964ef: fixup! fix: don't announce empty wanderer inventories 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9f964ef50d42 11:01:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1169-g1d25011: give out fewer newwn spells, and no job books (kate, gammafunk) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 62-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d2501185e7d 11:02:07 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 11:02:48 <05kate> oh, another minor wanderer thing is that I think you get your spells double-announced when you begin the game (unless that's fixed in the PR and I missed it), once for the "you add X spells to your library" message, and again with the special wanderer message, might be good to suppress that first message if possible? 11:03:03 <05kate> since the first one shows up in a weird place before the regular "welcome to the dungeon" message too I think 11:04:02 <12ebering> ah yah 11:04:07 <12ebering> lost behind debug spam, good catch 11:09:25 <08nicolae> yep, i saw this the other day but forgot to mention it 11:27:41 kate: Regarding what you said earlier about barachi getting their range of vision extended further: An extra square would work fine on a 79x24 terminal so long as msg_min_height was 5. 11:27:44 If someone actually wanted to create the mutation, the game could deal with the map view being too small when the mutation was acquired. 11:29:22 <08nicolae> when you get the +2 mut, the game loads the tiles version in the background and then starts the game in that 11:29:22 Then we really would need potions of cure mutation! 11:29:39 we were definitely joking about +2 LOS; even if you could cram more area into LOS in a reliable way, increasing the size has lots of bad UI and gameplay implications 11:29:50 Aliscans: Personally I strongly suspect the idea that the minimum is _79_x24 is not universally respected :-) 11:30:34 <08nicolae> mutation that makes you euclidean. brings back circlelos 11:33:12 there were complaints about +1 LOS as it was, in terms of there not being enough gameplay to justify the headaches it causes 11:37:04 @nicolae Potion of play 0.16 or earlier on CAO or other available online server 11:39:53 <12ebering> a zig but at the bottom when you exit you start over in a zig one version earlier 11:43:12 wait, circle LOS used to be a thing? Why was it nixed! :( 11:43:43 gameplay bad 11:44:20 reaching edge of los via cardinal directions took longer than non-cardinal ones 11:44:31 which had lots of unfortunate side effects 11:44:45 Pinkbeast: I know there are a few things which don't look right at 79x24, but Crawl complains if you go any smaller. 11:44:47 Was diagonal movement not base*sqrt(2)? 11:45:00 (for speed) 11:45:02 <12ebering> no 11:45:10 yeah, all directions took same aut 11:45:15 oh well yeah, that'd be no fun 11:46:08 Aliscans: Yeah. The de jure limit is 79x24 for historical reasons, but I'm pretty sure the de facto one is 80x24 11:47:13 merryprog: after or even just as you get more wins, go back and try to win an old version like 0.10 (playable on CUE) or even somewhat later, like 0.12 (also on CAO) 11:47:29 that sounds painful 11:47:31 it'll be pretty interesting for you to see how the game has changed 11:49:23 yes, it will involve a good deal of pain, but ultimately not *too* much 11:49:23 many of us have lots of wins in these ancient versions, so it's not that bad 11:49:23 !lg . byversion won 11:49:23 121 games for gammafunk (byversion won): 20x 0.18, 20x 0.22, 15x 0.16, 10x 0.19, 8x 0.23, 8x 0.20, 7x 0.24, 6x 0.13, 6x 0.12, 5x 0.28, 4x 0.27, 4x 0.25, 2x 0.21, 2x 0.15, 2x 0.11, 0.17, 0.26 11:49:23 I always like to tell people to check out old, hyper abyss 11:49:45 but in terms of gameplay, there are far crazier things (than old abyss or circlelos) 11:52:29 I'm sure everything is perfectly balanced, though! 11:57:23 <12ebering> @gammafunk if you're still around and able to take another look 11:57:31 <12ebering> I'm gonna do the commit clean-up and force push 11:57:44 <12ebering> oh wait, gotta fix that weird message bug for kate first 12:01:12 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1170-g08b8803: give a more diverse mix of wanderer consumables 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 21+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/08b88039dc3e 12:01:12 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1171-gd365d29: reduce felid spell chances 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d365d29bc214 12:02:03 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 12:14:32 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1172-g53bae83: fix: silence library messages during newgame creation (kate) 10(87 seconds ago, 4 files, 7+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/53bae83d8dd6 12:15:22 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 12:16:18 missed you, NotCheibriados 12:16:29 thank you again advil for getting it working again :) 12:38:45 <12ebering> ok, there's a cleaned up version 12:39:01 <12ebering> thinking about merging it in a bit 12:39:07 <12ebering> @hellmonk have I ruined your vision 12:41:17 03hellmonk02 {Edgar A. Bering IV} 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1154-g4a64c83: feat: invert the wanderer paradigm 10(4 months ago, 4 files, 449+ 319-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4a64c83cd9c5 12:41:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1155-g04d7117: fix: don't fall back to a kite shield inappropriately at newgame 10(24 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/04d71170f476 12:41:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1156-g07e48af: fix: remove some dead book code from ng-setup 10(13 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/07e48af61261 12:41:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1157-gcb247e0: fix: don't announce empty wanderer inventories 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cb247e0ac106 12:41:17 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1158-g15f367a: fix: silence library messages during newgame creation (kate) 10(28 minutes ago, 4 files, 7+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/15f367a5a83d 12:42:07 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 13:21:08 03hellmonk02 {Edgar A. Bering IV} 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1154-ga95d509: feat: invert the wanderer paradigm 10(4 months ago, 4 files, 449+ 319-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a95d5098adf8 13:21:08 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1155-gc9877f6: fix: don't fall back to a kite shield inappropriately at newgame 10(24 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c9877f665c55 13:21:08 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1156-g805a0a0: fix: remove some dead book code from ng-setup 10(13 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/805a0a006729 13:21:08 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1157-g43c36bb: fix: don't announce empty wanderer inventories 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/43c36bbe99a0 13:21:08 03Edgar A. Bering IV02 07[greaterwanderer] * 0.28-a0-1158-g9314540: fix: silence library messages during newgame creation (kate) 10(68 minutes ago, 4 files, 7+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/93145404a523 13:21:59 Branch pull/2100 updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2100 13:41:10 Branch master updated to be equal with greaterwanderer: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/master 13:51:39 <08wormsofcan> @ebering since there was a lot of talk about mutations, give wanderers a chance to start with a good mutation as an option 13:51:47 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.28-a0-1158-g93145404a5 (34) 13:52:00 <08wormsofcan> or a bad mut and higher quality gear? 14:36:02 this sort of reminds me about elliptic's note about reported spell damage for a pan lord the other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/rgdr92/i_can_freeze_spell_at_1d43/ 14:36:02 <10PleasingFungus> i fixed the elliptic bug! 14:36:02 <10PleasingFungus> tho really elliptic did most of the work 14:36:36 <10PleasingFungus> anyway, good illusion 15:04:17 <13Sastreii> zot trap 15:04:18 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/920436057969922099/Schermata_2021-12-14_alle_23.02.36.png 15:04:25 <13Sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/920436090119274516/Zot_trap.png 15:27:58 03advil02 07* 0.28-a0-1159-g27aa881: fix: relax the conditions for `X]`/`X[` (elliptic) 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/27aa88144113 15:30:42 Zot! 15:32:38